[Scpg] steep permaculture slope ideas?
Owen Dell
owen at owendell.com
Tue Sep 7 11:30:10 PDT 2010
This is a very interesting dialog, and one that I believe is rich and
important enough to NOT carry it on in private. This is important
stuff that readers of this listserv need to hear and learn about. This
is NOT a spat and it is not personal. Having said that, I thank you,
Laura, for fleshing out your previous comments with some very juicy
and interesting information, much of which I agree with.
Unfortunately, I'm up against a deadline at work right now and I
haven't the time to respond in detail. But I would like to do so, not
in any way to argue with you or to prove you wrong, but to share ideas
between two professionals which I believe are relevant to the
interests of the permaculture community. Does that make sense? In
other words, I'm not trying to call you out or even to take a
particular stance, but to try to bring information to people who need
it, even though they may not know they need it. I think that's what
this listserv is for. If some people are uncomfortable with going
beyond the boundaries of permaculture conventional wisdom, then they
don't have to read this exchange or take part in the discussion. It
may not be for everybody.
More to come, but it will be in a couple of days due to my schedule.
In the meantime, let us hear from others on this important matter.
This is what community is all about.
Owen
Owen E. Dell, ASLA
Owen Dell & Associates
Landscape Architect • Educator • Author
P.O. Box 30433 • Santa Barbara, CA 93130
805 962-3253
owen at owendell.com
www.owendell.com
QUOTE OF THE DAY
"Don't make me come down there."
God
On Sep 7, 2010, at 10:53 AM, lfunkhouser at juno.com wrote:
> Owen,
>
> It appears that my comments were totally miscontrued. I think this
> kind of discussion is better carried on in private, but since you've
> "called me out" publicly, I will try to clarify the points you raise
> that are based on wildly incorrect assumptions about my statements.
>
> 1) I worked for Erosion Control magazine for several years, which
> was the magazine of the International Erosion Control Association
> (IECA). I attended the IECA conference for years and knew some of
> the board members and interacted with scores of people who were
> national leading specialists in erosion control, slope
> stabilization, soil stabilization, inventors of the products,
> manufacturers, etc. and I wrote for Stormwater magazine and took the
> CPESC (Certified Professional in Erosion Control) and CPSWQ
> (Certified Professional in Surface Water Quality) trainings. What I
> saw and learned scared me right into Larry Santoyo's permaculture
> course!!
>
> Based on my first hand knowledge, I can state with certainty that
> within the erosion control area of specialization (at the large
> institutional scale, such as highway and heavy construction,
> manufacturing, mining, utilities, retail store development) market
> forces do, in fact, largely define the solutions.
>
> Let me explain. Research and development in erosion control (which
> includes slope stabilization) seek to find the single "best"
> solution -- particularly one that can be patented and mass produced
> (economies of scale). This is clear with regard to engineered soils,
> porous concrete, porous asphalt, pavers, turf, and urban forestry
> products. Research institutes exist to develop products,
> universities do this, industry does this, and highway departments
> fund this kind of research. These products then find their way into
> wholesale and retail stores and influence the way the industry
> works. (And I seriously considered studying this for a Ph.D. but
> realized that trying to change academia and industry from within was
> not where I wanted to put my energies.)
>
> 2) Within the context of institutional erosion control, yes, the
> pros do in fact like to use the same solutions over and over again
> so that they can reduce costs by leveraging economies of scale, have
> predictability, and probably to an extent, have deep pockets to sue
> if something large happens to fail.
>
> 3) Why would this perspective matter? Because, as I suggested above,
> what goes around, comes around. Now that the large-scale end of the
> erosion control industry has collapsed (because it was driven by
> housing construction), the institutionalized perspectives and
> products will try to find a new home. You can pretend this whole
> side of the industry doesn't exist but that prevents a full
> understanding of where ideas and products come from, how they are
> developed and who is behind them in the field.
>
> Why would you need to know about this? Well, most of us don't, but
> those of us who want to consciously develop our ideas about human/
> environment interactions should know that, yes, landscape and
> related fields are not merely local, small enterprises that assess
> each site on its own terms. The structural stuff that shows up at
> Home Depot that's nice and easy to use comes from this other side of
> this industry. Not making a prejudgement here about these products,
> just to say that they are no different from any other form of
> American-style capitalism, and vigilance is always a good thing.
>
> When Owen was saying what sounded to me like, "Don't try anything
> yourself, don't do anything without a professional" it made me
> think, "Uh oh. He's going to ruin Kevin's confidence and drive him
> toward products because if Kevin could afford to hire Owen, he would
> have picked up the phone and just called him. And you do NOT want to
> get people thinking like the institutional pros here who only use
> the same solution over and over. We've only just started thinking
> for ourselves in trying to solve problems. Please, don't shut that
> down. There are still lifetimes of techniques and applications to be
> found and rediscovered."
>
> It seemed to shut down the interest in biological solutions when
> that could have led to a much more interesting discussion. Of
> course, Owen is assuming that every landscape pro always approaches
> things as a new situation. I know that that's not the case at all,
> outside of this rarified niche. So there needs to be either
> different price points to make Owen's level of custom expertise
> available to all, or an acknowledgment that the "customer" (in this
> case, people on this list) is always right and if the customer wants
> a do-it-yourself solution, the customer can have that too and not be
> made to feel "wrong" for doing that.
>
> 4) My example of Greece is that, even in the most denuded, over-used
> landscape that I have ever seen, the solution of choice is a site-
> sourced non-industrial material, fashioned into a structure BY HAND
> that would seem to be "reckless" to us to use but in fact, might
> actually last maybe hundreds of years. You don't see people using
> handmade retaining walls of stacked rocks for slope stabilization
> (not to say someone hasn't done this, but not widely), but you know,
> if it works, it works by golly! And why wouldn't we ever consider
> that? Because the institutional mass produced products have ALREADY
> permeated our consciousness. Yeah, handmade is super labor
> intensive, but Owen did not even begin to suggest to Kevin that
> Kevin might consider building a structure himself by hand with
> onsite materials. Why couldn't someone do that in their own
> backyard, for goddess sakes? That's my entire point here.
>
> 5) Forty to sixty years is about what most infrastructure is
> engineered for. If you don't know this look at the APWA website. I'm
> talking about large-scaled institutionalized infrastructure and
> that's what the products are engineered for. I'm not suggesting the
> products will fail after forty or sixty years (though some will),
> but that the usefulness of the entire solution is only expected to
> be forty to sixty years before it's replaced -- so we will have to
> keep BUYING those engineered products, don't ya know!
>
> If you want to understand this perspective in much further depth,
> see my article "Stormwater Management as Adaptation to Climate
> Change", which I presented at Stanford University at the Society of
> Environmental Journalists Conference in September of 2007.
>
> Finally, not everyone in the Central Coast area is rich and can
> afford the kind of services that would ensure unique, site-specific
> solutions. In fact, I would bet that aside from the professionals on
> this list, few, if anyone else can afford these services. So this is
> a group of do-it-yourselfers. My perspective is that if you're going
> to do-it-yourself, be aware that the market forces want you to use
> their "cheaper", easier to use materials as do CERTAIN types of
> professionals who give advice in this area. Maybe you have no choice
> but to use these products, or maybe you can figure some of this
> stuff out for yourself by looking to places that have for thousands
> of years had the same problems (we're the only place on earth with
> clay soil and oak woodland/Mediterranean climate?). Would vetiver
> and sandstone rocks work? How long has the sandstone been here?
>
> --Laura Funkhouser
>
> ---------- Original Message ----------
> From: Owen Dell <owen at owendell.com>
> To: lfunkhouser at juno.com
> Cc: info at earthflow.com, Scpg at arashi.com
> Subject: Re: [Scpg] steep permaculture slope ideas?
> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 08:09:58 -0700
>
> At the risk of beating this thing beyond death, I must correct some
> mis-statements. The landscaping professions have hundreds of
> solutions to slope situations, not just a couple. And they are not
> all "structural" but are biological as well. No responsible
> landscape professional (and for the sake of brevity I include here
> geotechnical people, engineers, etc.) would ever adopt a "one size
> fits all" approach to problems. And I have no idea where you get the
> notion that landscape professionals only come up with 40-year
> solutions. That is just not true. You unjustly demean many
> professions at once and I think you really should retract your
> irresponsible statements.
>
> As for the denuded and trampled slopes of Greece, how can you hold
> such utter destruction up as an example of something desirable? What
> happened to the native ecosystem? It was destroyed by human
> rapaciousness and ignorance. As you say, probably not the best
> solution. To say the least. The fact that those man-made conditions
> have lasted for a couple hundred years means nothing. Sensible
> permaculture would consider how to restore such a place, not use it
> as an example of the success of traditional practices.
>
> I'm responding to these comments because they are so wildly untrue
> and because they might persuade people away from the facts. This is
> not personal in any way, but I can't let reckless statements go
> unchallenged in this forum.
>
> Owen
>
> Owen E. Dell, ASLA
> Owen Dell & Associates
> Landscape Architect • Educator • Author
> P.O. Box 30433 • Santa Barbara, CA 93130
> 805 962-3253
> owen at owendell.com
> www.owendell.com
>
>
> QUOTE OF THE DAY
>
> "He who dares not offend cannot be honest."
>
> Thomas Paine
> philosopher and writer
> (1737-1809)
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 6, 2010, at 1:53 PM, lfunkhouser at juno.com wrote:
>
> > Larry! Geez, can't anyone take Labor Day off anymore?
> >
> > My perspective on slope stabilization is shaped by people who
> worked as experts (FASLAs, geo techs, PEs) for some of the nation's
> largest corporations and transportation utilities and hearing them
> say that only a couple of structural techniques really worked for
> all of the problems out there. I know that's wrong, that they were
> referring to what is easy and quick to do that provides predictable
> results.
> >
> > When I was in Greece I saw that the overgrazed, deforested,
> denuded islands with goat-trampled slopes all had terraces made of
> low crescent shaped stone retaining walls that looked to be a couple
> hundred years old. That's probably not the best solution but it's
> not one of the three that the experts I refer above were talking
> about. Their expectation of infrastructure lifespan is usually only
> 40 years and they only trust stone if it's wired into gabions. Over-
> engineered "solutions" can cause a lot of problems in the long run.
> >
> >
> >
> > Please note: message attached
> >
> > From: EarthFlow <info at earthflow.com>
> > To: Owen Dell <owen at owendell.com>
> > Cc: Scpg at arashi.com
> > Subject: Re: [Scpg] steep permaculture slope ideas?
> > Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 13:05:00 -0700
> >
> >
> > Hey Owen, Personally, I couldn't agree with you any more
> emphatically here.
> > (and an excellent "quote of the day" you have)
> >
> > Please remember that "permaculture" doesn't have techniques (or
> solutions, really)- but rather, you USE permaculture to arrive at
> techniques and solutions...
> >
> > Laura -I'm glad they consulted experts- that adds more support to
> Owen's position.
> >
> > I used to go round and round with thinking of exceptions- but now
> I flat out say in my permaculture design instruction:
> >
> > "never work on slopes greater than 15 degrees- without consulting
> a hydrological engineer, a geological engineer, a landscape
> architect- or all of the these professionals"
> >
> > The risk is simply too great. I too have been involved with some
> very expensive and dangerous rehab situations- especially when it
> come to infiltrating water on steeper slopes.
> >
> > Hey John- sometimes, "the solution- is the problem!" -especially
> in trying to stabilize hillsides.
> >
> > Of course, I often don't take my own advise and have made my fair
> share of mistakes. I have used biological approaches- using Vetiver
> and other grasses, I have used mesquite and nitrogen fixers, I have
> used a number of brambles- even poison oak and other natives- (which
> is an obvious choice here) -I have also used structural remedies-
> swales, net and pan boomerangs, rock terraces, tiny walls and
> baffles, jute netting and straw wattles... I still use these
> approaches now, but always under very specific conditions and with
> intentional references to feedback loops.
> >
> >
> > Larry
> >
> > http://earthflow.com
> > http://twitter.com/LarrySantoyo
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 12:58 PM, Owen Dell <owen at owendell.com>
> wrote:
> > Thank you for your amendments. It would have saved a lot of
> trouble if you had said these things in the first place. I hope that
> the professional the owner consulted is a geotechnical professional,
> which is the only discipline I am aware of that can bless a project
> of this kind. And as for vetiver, it is indeed an excellent slope
> holder in many situations. Vetiver is the exception to the rule that
> grasses are poor slope holders. It's important to be specific about
> these things, because just saying "grass" could lead someone to
> plant fescue or rye or some other inappropriate species. Not all
> grasses are the same.
> >
> > I never asserted that permaculture was incapable of stabilizing a
> slope. I did and do assert that the discussion was leading in some
> very dangerous directions and I stepped in, at the risk of being
> seen as a complete asshole, to send up a red flag and possibly stop
> something very bad from happening. I will, however, add that I often
> see permaculturists doing things that are reckless by the standards
> of landscape architecture and biology. Permaculture is a funny mix
> of science and superstition, in my opinion, and there is a lot of
> ego in it, to its detriment. When people make cavalier statements
> that are not based on fact, accepted principles, the experience of
> generations of well-informed people, and the laws of nature, they
> risk both creating a hazard and discrediting permaculture. Precisely
> BECAUSE of the huge number of variables involved in any land use
> decision, I'd like to see a lot more scientific rigor applied to
> some of these practices, and a lot less naivete, recklessness, and
> arrogance. Innovation is great as long as its proponents aren't
> talking nonsense or endangering people.
> >
> > Now you'll all really hate me. Oh well.
> >
> >
> > Owen
> >
> > Owen E. Dell, ASLA
> > Owen Dell & Associates
> > Landscape Architect • Educator • Author
> > P.O. Box 30433 • Santa Barbara, CA 93130
> > 805 962-3253
> > owen at owendell.com
> > www.owendell.com
> >
> >
> > QUOTE OF THE DAY
> >
> > “…even if the form is fitting and the design follows the lie of
> the
> > land, but the owner still does not get the right person to carry out
> > the work, and in addition is reluctant to spend money when
> > necessary, then any work which may have been done previously
> > will be wasted along with his present efforts.”
> >
> > Ji Cheng, “The Craft of Gardens”
> > 1631 a.d.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sep 6, 2010, at 12:16 PM, lfunkhouser at juno.com wrote:
> >
> > And to amend my original post on the subject: the owner did
> consult professionals, did use structural elements to stabilize the
> slope in addition to biological ones, and does consider safety first
> and foremost.
> >
> > My point was to provide two biological solutions that had not been
> previously submitted. Vetiver turns out to be a champion. My gosh,
> it's a grass that has its own international association!
> >
> > Is the assumption, then, that permaculture approaches could not
> possibly stablize a slope? That seems like faulty reasoning, given
> the number of variables involved for each unique situation and the
> stunning array of applications one could use..
> >
> > ---------- Original Message ----------
> > From: John Calvert <jcalvert at crystal3.com>
> > To: Undisclosed-recipients:;
> > Cc: Scpg at arashi.com
> > Subject: Re: [Scpg] steep permaculture slope ideas?
> > Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 12:01:26 -0700
> >
> >
> > Perhaps I can bring this to a close by saying that permaculture is
> applied to do what is appropriate, not to force an idea. "The
> problem is the solution" – the conditions and inputs will determine
> the possibilities. Herein lies the beauty of permaculture as a way
> of looking at things holistically, and without attachment to
> preconceived ideas or outcomes. But Owen's point is well taken –
> i.e. to have an understanding of what's going on with the mechanics
> of a slope, which involves soil, geology, and hydrology.
> >
> > I trust that Kevin is very capable of making a good decision.
> >
> > JC
> >
> >
> > Owen Dell wrote: Gee, people! Why are you so threatened by facts?
> Shoot the messenger? Come on! You just don't want to hear the truth.
> Slope failure, as I said in my previous email is NOT covered by
> insurance. Ask your agent. If your "experiential life" includes
> bankruptcy and a multi-million dollar lawsuit because your property
> fell onto your neighbor's house, maybe killing someone, then how are
> you going to feel? I've been an expert witness on cases of this
> kind. I really hate to ramp up the conflict here, but I just have
> got to tell you that you are living in a dream world if you think
> that it's no big deal to put public safety and the environment at
> risk because of some notion that it would be cool to transform a
> steep slope into a permaculture planting. Nice idea, but first you
> have to be sure you're not committing a massive and irretrievable
> error in judgment. I love permaculture and I love producing food,
> but I also love doing things right and staying out of trouble. Don't
> live in a dream world. Your actions have significant impacts on
> others. Find out what you're doing before you do it. Messing with
> land isn't a game. It's serious business, and safety is ALWAYS an
> overriding concern.
> >
> > Owen
> >
> > Owen E. Dell, ASLA
> > Owen Dell & Associates
> > Landscape Architect • Educator • Author
> > P.O. Box 30433 • Santa Barbara, CA 93130
> > 805 962-3253
> > owen at owendell.com
> > www.owendell.com
> >
> >
> > QUOTE OF THE DAY
> >
> > “Skill in landscape design is shown in the ability to 'follow' and
> > 'borrow from' the existing scenery and lie of the land, and artistry
> > is shown in the feeling of suitability created. This is…beyond the
> > powers of mere workmen, as well as beyond the control of the
> > landowner. The owner must obtain the services of the right person,
> > and not throw his money away.”
> >
> > Ji Cheng, “The Craft of Gardens”
> > 1631 a.d.
> >
> > On Sep 6, 2010, at 11:03 AM, lfunkhouser at juno.com wrote:
> >
> > Yes! I believe vetiver grass is it. Thank you Vinay.
> >
> > With all due respect to Owen, please don't shoot the messenger. I
> was trying to put Kevin in touch with someone who has a challenging
> slope and has done a lot of research and has had years of results
> and tinkering with the regime. Just passing along contacts and
> information here.
> >
> > Yes, you can't beat professional advice and experience, but there
> are new things to be discovered if one wants to live an experiential
> life and has really good insurance, and where safety is not an
> overriding concern. Some people like the process of discovery as
> much as the goal. I'll leave it at that.
> >
> > ---------- Original Message ----------
> > From: Vinay Jathanna <vjathanna at gmail.com>
> > To: "lfunkhouser at juno.com" <lfunkhouser at juno.com>
> > Cc: kevin at kevingleasonart.com
> > Subject: Re: [Scpg] steep permaculture slope ideas?
> > Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 10:55:15 -0700
> >
> > Hi Laura and Kevin,
> >
> > It is Vetiver Grass. Doug Richardson, in Santa Barbara is doing a
> lot of work with vetiver grass. It is a grass that comes from the
> Indian subcontinent. It is very benign and has multiple uses as a
> Permaculture plant.
> >
> > http://vetivernetinternational.blogspot.com/2008/06/vetiver-system-applications-in.html
> > http://www.vetiver.org/
> >
> > Vinay
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 10:08 AM, lfunkhouser at juno.com <lfunkhouser at juno.com
> > wrote:
> > Kevin,
> >
> > You might also want to talk to Mary Scaran, who is an
> acupuncturist in SB (she's in the phone book) and has a very steep
> slope running the entire length of her oak wooded and desert upland
> property that is permeated by a spring. She has planted lots of
> things to stabilize, including Persian mulberry trees (edible!) and
> some kind of grass -- can't remember which -- but a type of bunch
> grass that she selected for its very specific properties of soil
> stabilization. Mary practices permaculture, studies horticulture,
> and is a very fine acupuncturist.
> >
> > Good luck.
> >
> > --Laura
> >
> > ---------- Original Message ----------
> > From: Kevin Gleason <kevin at kevingleasonart.com>
> > To: John Calvert <jcalvert at crystal3.com>
> > Cc: scpg at arashi.com
> > Subject: Re: [Scpg] steep permaculture slope ideas?
> > Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 07:14:15 -0700
> >
> > Thanks, John, and all others who have replied. �This is such a
> helpful �
> > community. �I am going to look into the "net and pan" technique
> Susan �
> > recommended and am trying to find some good "pinning" shrubs and
> trees �
> > per Dan's advice. �I need to pay good attention to the plants
> that �
> > seem to be holding up west facing slopes next time I'm out hiking.
> �It �
> > is okay with me if this really steep section doesn't grow food....
> �
> > Maybe I'll just grow food for the birds there.
> > I appreciate eveyone's help.
> > Thanks!
> >
> >
> > On Sep 5, 2010, at 9:22 PM, John Calvert wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > I started out writing a response to this, looking in the
> direction �
> > > of what grows native on our steep coastal mountain canyons.
> > >
> > > But I realize that there isn't much edible on the really steep �
> > > slopes. �It seems the more fruit-bearing types are more likely
> to �
> > > appear where there's better soil and moisture.
> > >
> > > So, that leaves the plants that do well in poor soil and least �
> > > moisture...
> > >
> > > nopal cactus, various wild sages, maybe fit in a hollyleaf
> cherry, �
> > > chia ?, maybe some kind of mulberry, wild golden currant (?).
> > >
> > > so, mostly natives, and then some select fruit-bearing plantings
> w/ �
> > > drip irrigation. �?
> > >
> > > JC
> > >
> > >
> > > Kevin Gleason wrote:
> > >> Hi all,
> > >>
> > >> I was wondering if anyone has good advice for creating a garden
> on �
> > >> a VERY steep slope (more than 45 degrees.) �I'd love some
> feedback �
> > >> on alternative terracing methods, whether this is too steep for
> �
> > >> small swales, good soil-holding, drought-tolerant �ground
> covers �
> > >> and other plants that would be useful and other ideas. �I
> remember �
> > >> hearing Brock Dolman talking about making retaining walls with
> �
> > >> burlap tubes filled with soil and a little cement. �Anybody
> tried it?
> > >>
> > >> Thanks for your help!
> > >> Kevin
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Scpg mailing list
> > >> Scpg at arashi.com
> > >> https://www.arashi.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/scpg
> > >>
> > > _______________________________________________
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> >
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