[Scpg] steep permaculture slope ideas?

Tue Sep 7 10:27:24 PDT 2010

Owen Dell wrote:
> At the risk of beating this thing beyond death, I must correct some mis-statements. The landscaping professions have hundreds of solutions to slope situations, not just a couple. And they are not all "structural" but are biological as well. No responsible landscape professional (and for the sake of brevity I include here geotechnical people, engineers, etc.) would ever adopt a "one size fits all" approach to problems. And I have no idea where you get the notion that landscape professionals only come up with 40-year solutions. That is just not true. You unjustly demean many professions at once and I think you really should retract your irresponsible statements. 
>   

Laura said:   "hearing [the experts] say that only a couple of 
structural techniques really worked" and "Their expectation of 
infrastructure lifespan is usually only 40 years".

The way I see this, Laura is expressing what she has encountered from 
her experience and is being truthful in relaying that information.  I 
think it's important to hold a space for people to express what they 
have encountered without being judged for that.

The opposite of this is antagonistic and authoritarian and I don't think 
it belongs in this forum.

> As for the denuded and trampled slopes of Greece, how can you hold such utter destruction up as an example of something desirable? What happened to the native ecosystem? It was destroyed by human rapaciousness and ignorance. As you say, probably not the best solution. To say the least. The fact that those man-made conditions have lasted for a couple hundred years means nothing. Sensible permaculture would consider how to restore such a place, not use it as an example of the success of traditional practices.
>   

I think her point is that the traditional stone retaining walls work to 
hold the slopes up.  The walls are not intended to restore the slopes to 
a native ecosystem.  I bet there is still some vegetation growing there 
as a result of these walls, and that the goats are feeding on 
*something*, because the goats are still there (?), and therein lies 
some kind of beneficial balance, though not an *ideal* one.

JC

> I'm responding to these comments because they are so wildly untrue and because they might persuade people away from the facts. This is not personal in any way, but I can't let reckless statements go unchallenged in this forum. 
>
> Owen
>
> Owen E. Dell, ASLA
> Owen Dell & Associates
> Landscape Architect • Educator • Author
> P.O. Box 30433 • Santa Barbara, CA 93130
> 805 962-3253
> owen at owendell.com
> www.owendell.com
>
>
> QUOTE OF THE DAY
>
> "He who dares not offend cannot be honest."
> 		
> 		Thomas Paine
> 		philosopher and writer
> 		(1737-1809)
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 6, 2010, at 1:53 PM, lfunkhouser at juno.com wrote:
>
>   
>> Larry! Geez, can't anyone take Labor Day off anymore?
>>
>> My perspective on slope stabilization is shaped by people who worked as experts (FASLAs, geo techs, PEs) for some of the nation's largest corporations and transportation utilities and hearing them say that only a couple of structural techniques really worked for all of the problems out there. I know that's wrong, that they were referring to what is easy and quick to do that provides predictable results. 
>>
>> When I was in Greece I saw that the overgrazed, deforested, denuded islands with goat-trampled slopes all had terraces made of low crescent shaped stone retaining walls that looked to be a couple hundred years old. That's probably not the best solution but it's not one of the three that the experts I refer above were talking about. Their expectation of infrastructure lifespan is usually only 40 years and they only trust stone if it's wired into gabions. Over-engineered "solutions" can cause a lot of problems in the long run. 
>>
>>
>>
>> Please note: message attached
>>
>> From: EarthFlow <info at earthflow.com>
>> To: Owen Dell <owen at owendell.com>
>> Cc: Scpg at arashi.com
>> Subject: Re: [Scpg] steep permaculture slope ideas?
>> Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 13:05:00 -0700
>>
>>
>> Hey Owen, Personally, I couldn't agree with you any more emphatically here. 
>> (and an excellent "quote of the day" you have) 
>>
>> Please remember that "permaculture" doesn't have techniques (or solutions, really)- but rather, you USE permaculture to arrive at techniques and solutions...
>>  
>> Laura -I'm glad they consulted experts- that adds more support to Owen's position. 
>>
>> I used to go round and round with thinking of exceptions- but now I flat out say in my permaculture design instruction: 
>>
>> "never work on slopes greater than 15 degrees- without consulting a hydrological engineer, a geological engineer, a landscape architect- or all of the these professionals" 
>>
>> The risk is simply too great. I too have been involved with some very expensive and dangerous rehab situations- especially when it come to infiltrating water on steeper slopes.
>>
>> Hey John- sometimes, "the solution- is the problem!" -especially in trying to stabilize hillsides.
>>
>> Of course, I often don't take my own advise and have made my fair share of mistakes. I have used biological approaches- using Vetiver and other grasses, I have used mesquite and nitrogen fixers, I have used a number of brambles- even poison oak and other natives- (which is an obvious choice here) -I have also used structural remedies- swales, net and pan boomerangs, rock terraces, tiny walls and baffles, jute netting and straw wattles... I still use these approaches now, but always under very specific conditions and with intentional references to feedback loops.
>>
>>
>> Larry
>>
>> http://earthflow.com
>> http://twitter.com/LarrySantoyo
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 12:58 PM, Owen Dell <owen at owendell.com> wrote:
>> Thank you for your amendments. It would have saved a lot of trouble if you had said these things in the first place. I hope that the professional the owner consulted is a geotechnical professional, which is the only discipline I am aware of that can bless a project of this kind. And as for vetiver, it is indeed an excellent slope holder in many situations. Vetiver is the exception to the rule that grasses are poor slope holders. It's important to be specific about these things, because just saying "grass" could lead someone to plant fescue or rye or some other inappropriate species. Not all grasses are the same.
>>
>> I never asserted that permaculture was incapable of stabilizing a slope. I did and do assert that the discussion was leading in some very dangerous directions and I stepped in, at the risk of being seen as a complete asshole, to send up a red flag and possibly stop something very bad from happening. I will, however, add that I often see permaculturists doing things that are reckless by the standards of landscape architecture and biology. Permaculture is a funny mix of science and superstition, in my opinion, and there is a lot of ego in it, to its detriment. When people make cavalier statements that are not based on fact, accepted principles, the experience of generations of well-informed people, and the laws of nature, they risk both creating a hazard and discrediting permaculture. Precisely BECAUSE of the huge number of variables involved in any land use decision, I'd like to see a lot more scientific rigor applied to some of these practices, and a lot less naivete, recklessness, and arrogance. Innovation is great as long as its proponents aren't talking nonsense or endangering people.
>>
>> Now you'll all really hate me. Oh well.
>>
>>
>> Owen
>>
>> Owen E. Dell, ASLA
>> Owen Dell & Associates
>> Landscape Architect • Educator • Author
>> P.O. Box 30433 • Santa Barbara, CA 93130
>> 805 962-3253
>> owen at owendell.com
>> www.owendell.com
>>
>>
>> QUOTE OF THE DAY
>>
>> “…even if the form is fitting and the design follows the lie of the
>> land, but the owner still does not get the right person to carry out
>> the work, and in addition is reluctant to spend money when
>> necessary, then any work which may have been done previously
>> will be wasted along with his present efforts.”
>>
>>                Ji Cheng, “The Craft of Gardens”
>>                1631 a.d.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sep 6, 2010, at 12:16 PM, lfunkhouser at juno.com wrote:
>>
>> And to amend my original post on the subject: the owner did consult professionals, did use structural elements to stabilize the slope in addition to biological ones, and does consider safety first and foremost.
>>
>> My point was to provide two biological solutions that had not been previously submitted. Vetiver turns out to be a champion. My gosh, it's a grass that has its own international association!
>>
>> Is the assumption, then, that permaculture approaches could not possibly stablize a slope? That seems like faulty reasoning, given the number of variables involved for each unique situation and the stunning array of applications one could use..
>>
>> ---------- Original Message ----------
>> From: John Calvert <jcalvert at crystal3.com>
>> To: Undisclosed-recipients:;
>> Cc: Scpg at arashi.com
>> Subject: Re: [Scpg] steep permaculture slope ideas?
>> Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 12:01:26 -0700
>>
>>
>> Perhaps I can bring this to a close by saying that permaculture is applied to do what is appropriate, not to force an idea.  "The problem is the solution" – the conditions and inputs will determine the possibilities.  Herein lies the beauty of permaculture as a way of looking at things holistically, and without attachment to preconceived ideas or outcomes.  But Owen's point is well taken – i.e. to have an understanding of what's going on with the mechanics of a slope, which involves soil, geology, and hydrology.
>>
>> I trust that Kevin is very capable of making a good decision.
>>
>> JC
>>
>>
>> Owen Dell wrote: Gee, people! Why are you so threatened by facts? Shoot the messenger? Come on! You just don't want to hear the truth. Slope failure, as I said in my previous email is NOT covered by insurance. Ask your agent. If your "experiential life" includes bankruptcy and a multi-million dollar lawsuit because your property fell onto your neighbor's house, maybe killing someone, then how are you going to feel? I've been an expert witness on cases of this kind. I really hate to ramp up the conflict here, but I just have got to tell you that you are living in a dream world if you think that it's no big deal to put public safety and the environment at risk because of some notion that it would be cool to transform a steep slope into a permaculture planting. Nice idea, but first you have to be sure you're not committing a massive and irretrievable error in judgment. I love permaculture and I love producing food, but I also love doing things right and staying out of trouble. Don't live in a dream world. Your actions have significant impacts on others. Find out what you're doing before you do it. Messing with land isn't a game. It's serious business, and safety is ALWAYS an overriding concern.
>>
>> Owen
>>
>> Owen E. Dell, ASLA
>> Owen Dell & Associates
>> Landscape Architect • Educator • Author
>> P.O. Box 30433 • Santa Barbara, CA 93130
>> 805 962-3253
>> owen at owendell.com
>> www.owendell.com
>>
>>
>> QUOTE OF THE DAY
>>
>> “Skill in landscape design is shown in the ability to 'follow' and
>> 'borrow from' the existing scenery and lie of the land, and artistry
>> is shown in the feeling of suitability created. This is…beyond the
>> powers of mere workmen, as well as beyond the control of the
>> landowner. The owner must obtain the services of the right person,
>> and not throw his money away.”
>>
>>        Ji Cheng, “The Craft of Gardens”
>>        1631 a.d.
>>
>> On Sep 6, 2010, at 11:03 AM, lfunkhouser at juno.com wrote:
>>
>> Yes! I believe vetiver grass is it. Thank you Vinay.
>>
>> With all due respect to Owen, please don't shoot the messenger. I was trying to put Kevin in touch with someone who has a challenging slope and has done a lot of research and has had years of results and tinkering with the regime. Just passing along contacts and information here.
>>
>> Yes, you can't beat professional advice and experience, but there are new things to be discovered if one wants to live an experiential life and has really good insurance, and where safety is not an overriding concern. Some people like the process of discovery as much as the goal. I'll leave it at that.
>>
>> ---------- Original Message ----------
>> From: Vinay Jathanna <vjathanna at gmail.com>
>> To: "lfunkhouser at juno.com" <lfunkhouser at juno.com>
>> Cc: kevin at kevingleasonart.com
>> Subject: Re: [Scpg] steep permaculture slope ideas?
>> Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 10:55:15 -0700
>>
>> Hi Laura and Kevin,
>>
>> It is Vetiver Grass. Doug Richardson, in Santa Barbara is doing a lot of work with vetiver grass. It is a grass that comes from the Indian subcontinent. It is very benign and has multiple uses as a Permaculture plant.
>>
>> http://vetivernetinternational.blogspot.com/2008/06/vetiver-system-applications-in.html
>> http://www.vetiver.org/
>>
>> Vinay
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 10:08 AM, lfunkhouser at juno.com <lfunkhouser at juno.com> wrote:
>> Kevin,
>>
>> You might also want to talk to Mary Scaran, who is an acupuncturist in SB (she's in the phone book) and has a very steep slope running the entire length of her oak wooded and desert upland property that is permeated by a spring. She has planted lots of things to stabilize, including Persian mulberry trees (edible!) and some kind of grass -- can't remember which -- but a type of bunch grass that she selected for its very specific properties of soil stabilization. Mary practices permaculture, studies horticulture, and is a very fine acupuncturist.
>>
>> Good luck.
>>
>> --Laura
>>
>> ---------- Original Message ----------
>> From: Kevin Gleason <kevin at kevingleasonart.com>
>> To: John Calvert <jcalvert at crystal3.com>
>> Cc: scpg at arashi.com
>> Subject: Re: [Scpg] steep permaculture slope ideas?
>> Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 07:14:15 -0700
>>
>> Thanks, John, and all others who have replied. �This is such a helpful �
>> community. �I am going to look into the "net and pan" technique Susan �
>> recommended and am trying to find some good "pinning" shrubs and trees �
>> per Dan's advice. �I need to pay good attention to the plants that �
>> seem to be holding up west facing slopes next time I'm out hiking. �It �
>> is okay with me if this really steep section doesn't grow food.... �
>> Maybe I'll just grow food for the birds there.
>> I appreciate eveyone's help.
>> Thanks!
>>
>>
>> On Sep 5, 2010, at 9:22 PM, John Calvert wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> I started out writing a response to this, looking in the direction �
>>> of what grows native on our steep coastal mountain canyons.
>>>
>>> But I realize that there isn't much edible on the really steep �
>>> slopes. �It seems the more fruit-bearing types are more likely to �
>>> appear where there's better soil and moisture.
>>>
>>> So, that leaves the plants that do well in poor soil and least �
>>> moisture...
>>>
>>> nopal cactus, various wild sages, maybe fit in a hollyleaf cherry, �
>>> chia ?, maybe some kind of mulberry, wild golden currant (?).
>>>
>>> so, mostly natives, and then some select fruit-bearing plantings w/ �
>>> drip irrigation. �?
>>>
>>> JC
>>>
>>>
>>> Kevin Gleason wrote:
>>>       
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> I was wondering if anyone has good advice for creating a garden on �
>>>> a VERY steep slope (more than 45 degrees.) �I'd love some feedback �
>>>> on alternative terracing methods, whether this is too steep for �
>>>> small swales, good soil-holding, drought-tolerant �ground covers �
>>>> and other plants that would be useful and other ideas. �I remember �
>>>> hearing Brock Dolman talking about making retaining walls with �
>>>> burlap tubes filled with soil and a little cement. �Anybody tried it?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your help!
>>>> Kevin
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Scpg mailing list
>>>> Scpg at arashi.com
>>>> https://www.arashi.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/scpg
>>>>
>>>>         
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