[Scpg] steep permaculture slope ideas?

Mon Sep 6 13:05:00 PDT 2010

Hey Owen, Personally, I couldn't agree with you any more emphatically here.
(and an excellent "quote of the day" you have)

Please remember that "permaculture" doesn't have techniques (or solutions,
really)- but rather, you USE permaculture to arrive at techniques and
solutions...

Laura -I'm glad they consulted experts- that adds more support to Owen's
position.

I used to go round and round with thinking of exceptions- but now I flat out
say in my permaculture design instruction:

"never work on slopes greater than 15 degrees- without consulting a
hydrological engineer, a geological engineer, a landscape architect- or all
of the these professionals"

The risk is simply too great. I too have been involved with some very
expensive and dangerous rehab situations- especially when it come to
infiltrating water on steeper slopes.

Hey John- sometimes, "the solution- is the problem!" -especially in trying
to stabilize hillsides.

Of course, I often don't take my own advise and have made my fair share of
mistakes. I have used biological approaches- using Vetiver and other
grasses, I have used mesquite and nitrogen fixers, I have used a number of
brambles- even poison oak and other natives- (which is an obvious choice
here) -I have also used structural remedies- swales, net and pan boomerangs,
rock terraces, tiny walls and baffles, jute netting and straw wattles... I
still use these approaches now, but always under very specific conditions
and with intentional references to feedback loops.

Larry

http://earthflow.com
http://twitter.com/LarrySantoyo

On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 12:58 PM, Owen Dell <owen at owendell.com> wrote:

> Thank you for your amendments. It would have saved a lot of trouble if you
> had said these things in the first place. I hope that the professional the
> owner consulted is a geotechnical professional, which is the only discipline
> I am aware of that can bless a project of this kind. And as for vetiver, it
> is indeed an excellent slope holder in many situations. Vetiver is the
> exception to the rule that grasses are poor slope holders. It's important to
> be specific about these things, because just saying "grass" could lead
> someone to plant fescue or rye or some other inappropriate species. Not all
> grasses are the same.
>
> I never asserted that permaculture was incapable of stabilizing a slope. I
> did and do assert that the discussion was leading in some very dangerous
> directions and I stepped in, at the risk of being seen as a complete
> asshole, to send up a red flag and possibly stop something very bad from
> happening. I will, however, add that I often see permaculturists doing
> things that are reckless by the standards of landscape architecture and
> biology. Permaculture is a funny mix of science and superstition, in my
> opinion, and there is a lot of ego in it, to its detriment. When people make
> cavalier statements that are not based on fact, accepted principles, the
> experience of generations of well-informed people, and the laws of nature,
> they risk both creating a hazard and discrediting permaculture. Precisely
> BECAUSE of the huge number of variables involved in any land use decision,
> I'd like to see a lot more scientific rigor applied to some of these
> practices, and a lot less naivete, recklessness, and arrogance. Innovation
> is great as long as its proponents aren't talking nonsense or endangering
> people.
>
> Now you'll all really hate me. Oh well.
>
>
> Owen
>
> Owen E. Dell, ASLA
> Owen Dell & Associates
> Landscape Architect • Educator • Author
> P.O. Box 30433 • Santa Barbara, CA 93130
> 805 962-3253
> owen at owendell.com
> www.owendell.com
>
>
> QUOTE OF THE DAY
>
> “…even if the form is fitting and the design follows the lie of the
> land, but the owner still does not get the right person to carry out
> the work, and in addition is reluctant to spend money when
> necessary, then any work which may have been done previously
> will be wasted along with his present efforts.”
>
>                Ji Cheng, “The Craft of Gardens”
>                1631 a.d.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 6, 2010, at 12:16 PM, lfunkhouser at juno.com wrote:
>
>  And to amend my original post on the subject: the owner did consult
>> professionals, did use structural elements to stabilize the slope in
>> addition to biological ones, and does consider safety first and foremost.
>>
>> My point was to provide two biological solutions that had not been
>> previously submitted. Vetiver turns out to be a champion. My gosh, it's a
>> grass that has its own international association!
>>
>> Is the assumption, then, that permaculture approaches could not possibly
>> stablize a slope? That seems like faulty reasoning, given the number of
>> variables involved for each unique situation and the stunning array of
>> applications one could use..
>>
>> ---------- Original Message ----------
>> From: John Calvert <jcalvert at crystal3.com>
>> To: Undisclosed-recipients:;
>> Cc: Scpg at arashi.com
>> Subject: Re: [Scpg] steep permaculture slope ideas?
>> Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 12:01:26 -0700
>>
>>
>> Perhaps I can bring this to a close by saying that permaculture is applied
>> to do what is appropriate, not to force an idea.  "The problem is the
>> solution" – the conditions and inputs will determine the possibilities.
>>  Herein lies the beauty of permaculture as a way of looking at things
>> holistically, and without attachment to preconceived ideas or outcomes.  But
>> Owen's point is well taken – i.e. to have an understanding of what's going
>> on with the mechanics of a slope, which involves soil, geology, and
>> hydrology.
>>
>> I trust that Kevin is very capable of making a good decision.
>>
>> JC
>>
>>
>> Owen Dell wrote: Gee, people! Why are you so threatened by facts? Shoot
>> the messenger? Come on! You just don't want to hear the truth. Slope
>> failure, as I said in my previous email is NOT covered by insurance. Ask
>> your agent. If your "experiential life" includes bankruptcy and a
>> multi-million dollar lawsuit because your property fell onto your neighbor's
>> house, maybe killing someone, then how are you going to feel? I've been an
>> expert witness on cases of this kind. I really hate to ramp up the conflict
>> here, but I just have got to tell you that you are living in a dream world
>> if you think that it's no big deal to put public safety and the environment
>> at risk because of some notion that it would be cool to transform a steep
>> slope into a permaculture planting. Nice idea, but first you have to be sure
>> you're not committing a massive and irretrievable error in judgment. I love
>> permaculture and I love producing food, but I also love doing things right
>> and staying out of trouble. Don't live in a dream world. Your actions have
>> significant impacts on others. Find out what you're doing before you do it.
>> Messing with land isn't a game. It's serious business, and safety is ALWAYS
>> an overriding concern.
>>
>> Owen
>>
>> Owen E. Dell, ASLA
>> Owen Dell & Associates
>> Landscape Architect • Educator • Author
>> P.O. Box 30433 • Santa Barbara, CA 93130
>> 805 962-3253
>> owen at owendell.com
>> www.owendell.com
>>
>>
>> QUOTE OF THE DAY
>>
>> “Skill in landscape design is shown in the ability to 'follow' and
>> 'borrow from' the existing scenery and lie of the land, and artistry
>> is shown in the feeling of suitability created. This is…beyond the
>> powers of mere workmen, as well as beyond the control of the
>> landowner. The owner must obtain the services of the right person,
>> and not throw his money away.”
>>
>>        Ji Cheng, “The Craft of Gardens”
>>        1631 a.d.
>>
>> On Sep 6, 2010, at 11:03 AM, lfunkhouser at juno.com wrote:
>>
>> Yes! I believe vetiver grass is it. Thank you Vinay.
>>
>> With all due respect to Owen, please don't shoot the messenger. I was
>> trying to put Kevin in touch with someone who has a challenging slope and
>> has done a lot of research and has had years of results and tinkering with
>> the regime. Just passing along contacts and information here.
>>
>> Yes, you can't beat professional advice and experience, but there are new
>> things to be discovered if one wants to live an experiential life and has
>> really good insurance, and where safety is not an overriding concern. Some
>> people like the process of discovery as much as the goal. I'll leave it at
>> that.
>>
>> ---------- Original Message ----------
>> From: Vinay Jathanna <vjathanna at gmail.com>
>> To: "lfunkhouser at juno.com" <lfunkhouser at juno.com>
>> Cc: kevin at kevingleasonart.com
>> Subject: Re: [Scpg] steep permaculture slope ideas?
>> Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 10:55:15 -0700
>>
>> Hi Laura and Kevin,
>>
>> It is Vetiver Grass. Doug Richardson, in Santa Barbara is doing a lot of
>> work with vetiver grass. It is a grass that comes from the Indian
>> subcontinent. It is very benign and has multiple uses as a Permaculture
>> plant.
>>
>>
>> http://vetivernetinternational.blogspot.com/2008/06/vetiver-system-applications-in.html
>> http://www.vetiver.org/
>>
>> Vinay
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 10:08 AM, lfunkhouser at juno.com <
>> lfunkhouser at juno.com> wrote:
>> Kevin,
>>
>> You might also want to talk to Mary Scaran, who is an acupuncturist in SB
>> (she's in the phone book) and has a very steep slope running the entire
>> length of her oak wooded and desert upland property that is permeated by a
>> spring. She has planted lots of things to stabilize, including Persian
>> mulberry trees (edible!) and some kind of grass -- can't remember which --
>> but a type of bunch grass that she selected for its very specific properties
>> of soil stabilization. Mary practices permaculture, studies horticulture,
>> and is a very fine acupuncturist.
>>
>> Good luck.
>>
>> --Laura
>>
>> ---------- Original Message ----------
>> From: Kevin Gleason <kevin at kevingleasonart.com>
>> To: John Calvert <jcalvert at crystal3.com>
>> Cc: scpg at arashi.com
>> Subject: Re: [Scpg] steep permaculture slope ideas?
>> Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 07:14:15 -0700
>>
>> Thanks, John, and all others who have replied. �This is such a helpful �
>> community. �I am going to look into the "net and pan" technique Susan �
>> recommended and am trying to find some good "pinning" shrubs and trees �
>> per Dan's advice. �I need to pay good attention to the plants that �
>> seem to be holding up west facing slopes next time I'm out hiking. �It �
>> is okay with me if this really steep section doesn't grow food.... �
>> Maybe I'll just grow food for the birds there.
>> I appreciate eveyone's help.
>> Thanks!
>>
>>
>> On Sep 5, 2010, at 9:22 PM, John Calvert wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > I started out writing a response to this, looking in the direction �
>> > of what grows native on our steep coastal mountain canyons.
>> >
>> > But I realize that there isn't much edible on the really steep �
>> > slopes. �It seems the more fruit-bearing types are more likely to �
>> > appear where there's better soil and moisture.
>> >
>> > So, that leaves the plants that do well in poor soil and least �
>> > moisture...
>> >
>> > nopal cactus, various wild sages, maybe fit in a hollyleaf cherry, �
>> > chia ?, maybe some kind of mulberry, wild golden currant (?).
>> >
>> > so, mostly natives, and then some select fruit-bearing plantings w/ �
>> > drip irrigation. �?
>> >
>> > JC
>> >
>> >
>> > Kevin Gleason wrote:
>> >> Hi all,
>> >>
>> >> I was wondering if anyone has good advice for creating a garden on �
>> >> a VERY steep slope (more than 45 degrees.) �I'd love some feedback �
>> >> on alternative terracing methods, whether this is too steep for �
>> >> small swales, good soil-holding, drought-tolerant �ground covers �
>> >> and other plants that would be useful and other ideas. �I remember �
>> >> hearing Brock Dolman talking about making retaining walls with �
>> >> burlap tubes filled with soil and a little cement. �Anybody tried it?
>> >>
>> >> Thanks for your help!
>> >> Kevin
>> >> _______________________________________________
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