[Scpg] Fwd: [Lapg] More on Perennial Vegetables for Miami
Dan Hemenway
permacltur at aol.com
Fri Dec 18 06:46:48 PST 2009
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Hemenway <permacltur at aol.com>
To: cobanation at yahoo.com
Sent: Fri, Dec 18, 2009 9:08 am
Subject: Re: [Scpg] [Lapg] More on Perennial Vegetables for Miami
You have me confused with Cory, who initiated this thread. I've lived in Florida for about 15 years (well more, as we lived in Jacksonville for a while before following Cynthia's midwifery career to Georgia for a while.) Insects are present, but if one knows his/her stuff, there are solutions--biological controls, crop selections, etc. I have a whole section of my online course on that, so I don't want to go into that here.
Insect damage is somewhat seasonal, in pulses, with summer being so hot and also the rainy season, being murderous if you don't select crops well. Caterpillars (including cutworms) and grasshoppers are worst. We have one species of grasshopper here that literally gets big enough to shoot. (I've done it.) That's a lot of vegetation gone to make that critter. My chickens are afraid of them, and I've seen the chickens eat small snakes. For example, I grow C. moschata instead of C. pepo for squashes, because C. moschata resists the squash vine borer here. I also grow plants like roselle and false roselle, which don't get eaten. The trade off for many insect resistant veggies is that the insects don't favor them for a reason--for example high oxalic acid, cyanide precursors, latex, etc. So you don't want to eat them raw. And it is smart to eat weeds that thrive when common vegetables fail.
Of course, we are supposed to be discussing perennial vegetables, which seem to be consistently overrated by people who have not tried managing them. The ones I mentioned all tolerate insect damage without spraying. I detest spraying, even of biological controls--I just don't like the job. I've gotten so I can shoot my hand out and decapitate a grasshopper with my pruning shears most of the time up until about 85° F. Hotter than that, more get away than get murdered, but it is still worthwhile. A good strategy with the forest garden concept is to include chickens or ducks for some pest control. This limits what you can grow in the herb layer, of course. One really excellent perennial vegetable that is currently thriving in my garden is nettles. They must be cooked as a photherb, of course, to neutralize the stinging hairs. The chickens leave them alone. But they languish in hot weather and only take off during the cooler months. We have both annual nettles, which fortunately came in with some horse manure I scored, and perennial, for which I had to buy seed. Insects don't bother them.
A major pest in dry months is the fire ant. They go after fruit for the moisture. If I have hot water from canning or scalding poultry to remove feathers, I dump it into the fire ant nest. This kills most of them. We also use a wood fired stove for cooking and a bit of heat during the cooler months, and we put a big stock pot on it when we aren't cooking. The fire ants are all in the nest on cool days and you can do a fairly complete job of killing them. I put a little detergent in the water so it penetrates the soil more quickly. In fact, I often use water left from dishwashing for this job.
We buy a preparation that is allegedly organic called spinosad, and we use this to suppress fire ants in containers. I don't know what it is made of, so I'm a bit nervous, so I don't use it where I'm going to harvest any time soon. We do a lot of container growing here in addition to our chinampas, forest gardens, and other garden systems.
For Mother Earth
Dan Hemenway
Barking Frogs Permaculture Center
Dear Dan,
I grew up in Miami back in the 50's,60's and 70's and was always planting trees,
mostly coconuts that sproutd along the beaches and inland waters. I must say
there are tons of insects and a pool screen would be manditory for edibles. Keep
the veggies high unlike the desert where you'd crator garden. Keep intouch, I'm
really curious on the results. Watch out for the gov. coming in and just ripping
your citrus trees out without warning, because of the medfly.
Ray
-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Cirino <cobanation at yahoo.com>
To: Dan Hemenway <permacltur at aol.com>; scpg at arashi.com; lapg at arashi.com; Cory Brennan <cory8570 at yahoo.com>
Sent: Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:13 am
Subject: Re: [Scpg] [Lapg] More on Perennial Vegetables for Miami
Dear Dan,
I grew up in Miami back in the 50's,60's and 70's and was always planting trees,
mostly coconuts that sproutd along the beaches and inland waters. I must say
there are tons of insects and a pool screen would be manditory for edibles. Keep
the veggies high unlike the desert where you'd crator garden. Keep intouch, I'm
really curious on the results. Watch out for the gov. coming in and just ripping
your citrus trees out without warning, because of the medfly.
Ray
The Great Challenges we now face as a species present the very opportunities
that are giving birth to Ecological, Psychological, and Spiritual
Sustainability.
--- On Wed, 12/16/09, Cory Brennan <cory8570 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> From: Cory Brennan <cory8570 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Lapg] More on Perennial Vegetables for Miami
> To: "Dan Hemenway" <permacltur at aol.com>, scpg at arashi.com, lapg at arashi.com
> Date: Wednesday, December 16, 2009, 8:44 PM
> Dan,
>
> Always a delight to read your thoughts. We're going to
> focus on incorporating perennials in an edible jungle
> environment - jungle is the perfect system for Miami, with
> its "problem" soils - we've been just heaping organic matter
> on top of the sand in different Florida climates and stuff
> is growing really well. At the Miami location, they
> also grow lettuce and some other annuals at the site.
>
> The water table is an interesting problem as well in much
> of low land Florida - we recommended chinampas to grow trees
> and veggies on at one site in central Florida that turned
> marshy in the rain. They were using drainage ditches to flow
> the water off the property! Coming from S Calif, that seemed
> almost sacriligious to me.
>
> At Pine Ridge in S Dakota, with heavy clay/silt soil, we
> need to dig into and open the soil a la keyline to create
> the conditions for diverse prairie grasses and tree systems
> to flourish.
>
> Bamboo, yes! Extremely useful and beautiful. I'm wondering
> if there is a form of bamboo that would grow quickly in the
> harsh extremes of a place like Pine Ridge (100+ in the
> summer, well below freezing in winter, 3-4 months growing
> season free of frost).
>
> Best, Cory
>
>
>
>
>
> --- On Mon, 12/14/09, Dan Hemenway <permacltur at aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> > From: Dan Hemenway <permacltur at aol.com>
> > Subject: More on Perennial Vegetables for Miami
> > To: permacltur at aol.com,
> cory8570 at yahoo.com,
> scpg at arashi.com,
> lapg at arashi.com,
> johnvalenzuela at myway.com
> > Date: Monday, December 14, 2009, 5:09 AM
> >
> >
> >
> > A
> > second look at perennial vegetables.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > In
> > providing partial answers to the inquiry about
> perennial
> > vegetables for the
> > Miami area, I failed to question the question itself.
> Why
> > perennial? Why
> > vegetables? Is this just a knee-jerk response to
> the
> > common misconception
> > that permaculture is about growing food in
> ‘permanent’
> > plantings, or are there
> > reasoned considerations behind the interest.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Mollison
> > makes a good case against tillage of soil, though
> stopping
> > short of ruling it
> > out as an absolute crime against nature in all cases.
> It
> > has been the standard
> > mode of food production for centuries. If it iscno
> > good, why?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Tillage
> > and agriculture are twins. The
> >
> >
> >
> > revolution
> > in provisioning of food that enabled such abominations
> as
> > urban
> >
> >
> >
> > society,
> > large scale warfare, and wholesale ecological
> destruction
> > was enabled by the
> > coupling of the plow and the draft animal. Slaves
> > were also used to pull
> > plows, but less efficiently. Turning the soil
> eliminated
> > weeds and enabled
> > rapid establishment of annual grasses such as wheat,
> that
> > in turn provided food
> > for far more people than needed to produce it.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > In
> > home gardens, tillage proved better suited to cool and
> cold
> > temperate climates,
> > where people’s access to traditional forest systems
> was
> > curtailed by church and
> > government institutions. One could at least have a
> small
> > garden on a patch of
> > land, sometimes. Turning the soil over in spring
> hastened
> > warming, destroyed
> > perennial and biennial weeds, and enabled rapid
> planting of
> > the entire garden,
> >
> >
> >
> > quite
> > advantageous in a short growing season. In arid and
> > semiarid areas, clean
> > cultivation of various
> >
> >
> >
> > sorts
> > eliminates moisture competition.
> >
> >
> >
> > As in
> > tropical and subtropical situations, tree crops often
> best
> > suit to
> >
> >
> >
> > these
> > areas, if the is a more or less steady supply of deep
> > moisture. Wide
> > spacing of plants diminishes
> >
> >
> >
> > moisture
> > competition.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Traditional
> > gardening in moist warm climates has always been
> forest
> > gardening. Where
> > cultivation is practiced, it is generally a case of
> > following the wrong
> > model. While one can get away with cultivating
> soils
> > in a cool climate,
> > where organic inputs break down slowly, turning soil
> in
> > warm moist
> >
> >
> >
> > climates
> > can destroy fertility quickly. Organic matter breaks
> down
> > rapidly
> >
> >
> >
> > enough
> > in these climates, and when additional air is mixed
> into
> > the soil, it
> >
> >
> >
> > almost
> > evaporates. No longer bound
> >
> >
> >
> > in
> > organic compounds, the resulting fertility minerals
> leach
> > away from the
> >
> >
> >
> > surface
> > feeder roots, ending up for the most part in the
> aquifer.
> > Perennials,
> >
> >
> >
> > and
> > woody plants in particular, may pump nutrients from
> > deeper soil than
> >
> >
> >
> > normally
> > mined by feeder roots. (An excellent tree for this is
> > Inga edulis.) Some
> > do; some don’t.
> > Other woody plants may have a fibrous root
> > system. For example,
> > citrus or sabal palm. These intercept nutrients
> > efficiently before they
> > leach. Citrus, for example, can take up large
> > quantities of
> >
> >
> >
> > nutrients
> > quickly, as available, and store them in the
> leaves.
> > (Defoliate a citrus
> > tree and you get no fruit!) Trees that have a natural
> > preference for river
> > banks that flood, for example, are a good bet for such
> an
> > ability, as the flood
> > waters drop rich sediments around them, but the
> nutrients
> > can be leached by
> > rainfall and/or subsequent flooding. So it
> > is
> >
> >
> >
> > catch
> > as catch can. I’ve not looked into this, but I would
> say
> > that mangoes are
> >
> >
> >
> > a
> > good bet for adventitious nutrient capture, judging
> from
> > where I’ve seen them
> > growing, both planted and more or less unattended in
> places
> > such as Mexico,
> > Paraguay, and the Philippines.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > OK,
> > we want to conserve soil nutrients, take up nutrients
> > quickly when they are
> > available (to avoid leaching), and produce useful
> products,
> > including
> > food. If perennial vegetables help with
> > this,
> >
> >
> >
> > fine.
> > Though specifying vegetables
> >
> >
> >
> > may
> > channel a mindset of single use, a mindset that we
> avoid
> > in
> >
> >
> >
> > permaculture.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Since
> > the question pertained to the Miami region of
> Florida,
> > cursed with soils that
> > both are coarse (leach rapidly) and intensely
> calcareous
> > (developed from
> > coral), we have additional concerns. We want plants
> that
> > tolerate extremes of
> > moisture and drought, and that tolerate a high soil pH
> with
> > excessive soil
> > calcium. LOL
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The
> > problem is not a shortage of books! One could fill
> a
> > good size library
> > with books that deal with tropical food
> > plants,
> >
> >
> >
> > or
> > just with books that deal with food plants for
> tropical
> > islands, which
> >
> >
> >
> > commonly
> > have nearly identical soil conditions to Miami’s.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > A
> > permaculturist might hunt down some of these books.
> But not
> > as a first course
> >
> >
> >
> > of
> > action! One needs to shut off
> >
> >
> >
> > the
> > computer, get off his/her ass, and get out and walk
> > around. What is
> > growing in the area already? Do
> >
> >
> >
> > we really
> > know all its uses? Is it
> >
> >
> >
> > edible?
> > Is it a nutrient pump? Is
> >
> >
> >
> > it a
> > nutrient net? What are its
> >
> >
> >
> > multiple
> > functions? How much work is required to keep it
> growing and
> > producing? Does it depend upon
> > external inputs? If
> > so, to what degree?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > South
> > Florida has some of the best warm-climate botanical
> gardens
> > I know about.
> > Probably no one person is familiar with all of the
> plants
> > in any of them. There is a
> > botanical garden
> > specifically aimed at fruit and spice plants in the
> nearby
> > Homestead area
> > (which has quite different soils from the Miami
> area).
> > There is an amazing
> > variety of food presented in open air markets and
> ethnic
> > markets in the
> > area. Often, a grocery purchase nets seeds as well
> as
> > food.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The
> > first principle of permaculture design is
> conservation. A
> > core concept derived
> > from this principle is Mollison’s dictum, ‘Seek
> the
> > most benefit from the least
> > change.’ This translates, in part,
> >
> >
> >
> > to
> > “Use what you’ve got.” To do that, you have
> to
> > know what you’ve got, what
> > is growing right around you. For example, I was amazed
> in a
> > visit to Miami to
> > see a mulberry tree producing
> >
> >
> >
> > prolifically.
> > It tolerated the heat.
> >
> >
> >
> > It
> > tolerated the calcareous soil. And it produced
> despite
> > competition
> >
> >
> >
> > from
> > a lawn! (I took cuttings, but
> >
> >
> >
> > it
> > was the absolute worst time to take cuttings and only
> two
> > made it. One I
> > donated to a permaculture
> >
> >
> >
> > demonstration
> > design by some of my students at New College at
> > Sarasota. Maybe you can
> > get permission for some
> >
> >
> >
> > cuttings
> > of your own at the right time, in about a
> > month.) Mulberry is more
> > than a tree fruit. It is shade,
> > firewood,
> >
> >
> >
> > cover
> > and forage for poultry, and a vegetable.
> > Cooked mulberry leaves
> > taste fine. (I wouldn’t eat them raw, as they
> > contain a latex). OK, a
> > bearing mulberry tree wasn’t hard to recognize.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > So
> > you have more plants than you can deal with now, you
> just
> > have to get your
> > people out checking on them, looking them up in
> Facciola,
> > etc. Talking to folks
> > in ethnic neighborhoods will save a lot of time, and
> > watching what the kids
> > forage
> >
> >
> >
> > helps.
> > In Massachusetts, I was helping to set up a little
> demo at
> > a college in Roxbury
> > and noticed, again, some
> >
> >
> >
> > mulberry
> > trees. This was early
> >
> >
> >
> > spring
> > and they hadn’t even leafed-out yet. Some kids
> were
> > watching us.
> > “Hey, kid, which of these trees has the best
> > mulberries?” “I don’ know
> > about no
> >
> >
> >
> > mulberries,
> > mister.” “Don’t worry.
> > We want
> > you to eat them. I just need to know which is best so
> we
> > can grow more of
> > them.” “Yeah. That one over there is pretty
> > good.” How do you
> > get that kind of information from a book?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > OK,
> > why vegetables? Why not fruits and vegetables, as they
> are
> > nutritionally
> > interchangeable? Moreover, many
> >
> >
> >
> > fruits
> > are used as vegetables too, either the leaves, as
> with
> > mulberry or
> >
> >
> >
> > papaya,
> > or the immature fruit, e.g., mango and papaya
> again.
> > And, besides the
> > obvious vegetable, plantain, you have green bananas,
> > essentially a different
> > variety of the same crop, used the same way. No family
> can
> > use up all the ripe
> > bananas from one plant before they go bad. So one
> > starts with the green
> > bananas, cooked. (And there are strategies for
> > hastening or, alternately,
> > delaying ripening to spread the period of ripe fruit
> over a
> > longer, and
> > therefore more useful, interval.) And why do we call
> banana
> > a fruit
> > anyway? It is interchangeable nutritionally with
> > potato. We call a tomato
> > a vegetable, but it is a fruit, botanically. Why not
> > banana? There just
> > isn’t a reason. We draw the line arbitrarily, by
> > custom, not reason.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > While
> > I am aware that the common misconception is that
> > permaculture is a system of
> > growing food. We should not support that fiction.
> So
> > we want plants that
> > fulfill our need for fruits/vegetables and that have
> > multiple functions.
> >
> >
> >
> > Yesterday,
> > I mentioned chayote as a vegetable with several
> > edible
> >
> >
> >
> > parts.
> > I first encountered chayote
> >
> >
> >
> > in
> > 1984, teaching a permaculture design course in a
> little
> > village, Otates, in
> >
> >
> >
> > the
> > highlands of Veracruz near Jalapa. In checking out
> the
> > area, I encountered
> >
> >
> >
> > chayote
> > plantations all trellised like commercial grapes and
> over
> > bare soil
> >
> >
> >
> > cultivation.
> > This was winter, relatively cool and dry in that
> region. My
> > first
> >
> >
> >
> > thought
> > was that they could get a crop of winter wheat out
> between
> > the chayotes.
> > Harvest would be slightly awkward, but manageable.
> Then I
> > thought, why not run
> > chickens under the vines on a rotational basis,
> harvesting
> > wheat, wheat grass,
> > weeds, and insects. The chickens would need very
> little
> > purchased feed. No
> > fertilizer would be bought, only chicken feed. What
> the
> > chickens passed would
> > become fertilizer. If one grows broilers in batches,
> > chickens could be marketed
> > before the spring flush of shoots, which would be
> > vulnerable to pecking and
> >
> >
> >
> > scratching,
> > and a new batch introduced when all was safe. I
> > didn’t work out the
> > summer cover crop, but it might be evident from among
> the
> > weeds. Or legume
> > cover crop such as cowpea might be grown. Running
> > trellis wires between
> > rows would create an arbor effect, making better use
> of
> > sunlight, and providing
> > shade for chickens or maybe turkeys would be a better
> > summer crop. Mob stocking
> > could create more or less bare soil just before
> reseeding,
> > or one could use a
> > Fukuoka-type system of planting through the previous
> crop
> > (after removing the
> > birds!). So we go from a simplistic concept of
> > perennial vegetable to a
> > system of multiple plant species, animal species,
> greater
> > yield of our
> >
> >
> >
> > primary
> > crop, a second highly profitable crop, and less
> expense for
> > labor and
> >
> >
> >
> > fertilizer.
> > That is how a permaculturist looks at a ‘perennial
> > vegetable.’
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Finally,
> > it seems that we are overlooking a lot of obvious
> > options. For example,
> > no on has mentioned bamboo
> >
> >
> >
> > shoots.
> > I’ve already cited plantain above. Cassava is a
> plant
> > native to nearby regions
> > of the Caribbean, with both edible leaves and root.
> Palm
> > hearts are fine food,
> > though a little labor intensive to harvest. Where
> one
> > needs to cut a
> > sabal palm anyway (the Florida state tree), you might
> as
> > well harvest the
> > heart. The tender portions are surrounded by fibrous
> but
> > also starchy material
> > that is good feed for ruminants and especially
> rabbits.
> > (And it is one of the
> > most weedy plants at our site and very difficult to
> > suppress once germinated.)
> > You can get lists of palms with multiple stems for
> palm
> > heart gardening.
> > Some of these also bear useful fruit (and terrifying
> > thorns!).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Good
> > luck! And productive observations!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hemenway
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Barking
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Frogs
> > Permaculture Center
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > www.barkingfrogspermaculture.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > PS There are excellent USDA agricultural
> > stations in Puerto Rico and Hawaii with many useful
> > publications.
> >
> >
> >
> > There
> > are also university publications from each. Also in
> English are good publications
> > from the
> > Philippines,
> >
> >
> >
> > Australia
> > (which has a large subtropical to tropical zone), and
> > probably from the
> > American territories in the Pacific (e.g. American
> Samoa).
> > Many African
> > countries are
> > former English
> > colonies and have
> > English as one of their official languages. For
> example, in Kenya, ICRAF
> > publishes in English. In Miami,
> > you should be able to find permaculture-oriented
> folks
> > fluent in Spanish, which
> > opens up papers and books published from Mexico
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > to
> > Argentina for you to mine. For
> > example,
> > someone should run down the library of INEREB, long
> since
> > defunded, but doing
> > exactly the sort
> > of research
> > that pertains to your
> > needs. (Disregard their paper on chinampas, which is
> > wrongheaded.) There are
> > permaculture movements in these
> > countries, as well as Brazil
> > where many permacultrists speak English fluently. So
> > information exchange can
> > help develop your info base.
> >
> >
> >
> > But
> > knowing about a useful plant is of no value if you
> > don't have a way to get it.
> > Using what already grows around you avoids that
> > problem.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > PSS I forgot to mention that we always
> > encourage someone in a region to develop a
> permaculture
> > nursery. If someone already has
> > a
> >
> >
> >
> > nursery
> > and is interested in permaculture, that is way better
> > because you don't learn
> > nursery operations overnight.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
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