[Scpg] -SBOrgGdn- Re: is ice plant a good edible permaculture plant?

[Marshall Chrostowski]

John, excellent points. I too argued against the succulent because of its invasive qualities affecting sensitive habitats. There appears to be little habitat value for the plant in California and the plant form dense stands excluding other plants once well established.  

Linda, I also believe the succulent to be a poor candidate for green roofs. If you ever had to remove a patch, you would have cursed the weight of the biomass. Sedums and some Senecios are succulents useful in green roofing, pretty in flower and slow growing. Admittedly, these alternative candidates don't produce edible fruit.

Marshall






________________________________
From: "LBUZZELL at aol.com" <LBUZZELL at aol.com>
To: johnvalenzuela at myway.com; scpg at arashi.com; sbperm2006 at googlegroups.com; sbogc at yahoogroups.com; sbfoodfuture at googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, September 7, 2009 8:47:53 AM
Subject: -SBOrgGdn- Re: [Scpg] is ice plant a good edible permaculture plant?

 


Thanks, John, for your thoughts on this.  I'm hoping to get a little 
discussion going on this topic, as I wonder if some of our current thinking on 
invasive species and native plants might not be worth a second look from a 
permaculture point of view.  
 
With climate change, the range of our native species is already shifting 
and in our permaculture and garden designs we'll be needing to include species 
that can perform many functions for us, including vigor and edibility.  
Here in our area, the native species would probably not feed the current 
population even if the climate were stable, so looking around for 
permaculture-friendly species is, I think, a worthwhile endeavor.  
 
Of course iceplant may not pass the tests of desirability, but so far apart 
from the idea that it might displace native species, I've not heard too many 
good arguments against it apart from criticisms of its taste.  My own 
research found that one could make "delicious" jam from  its fruits -- is 
this not true?  Also apparently some species of iceplant are more tasty 
than others, so as with any edible plant, we'd need to select for taste.
 
If iceplant isn't the succulent of choice (and in our increasingly dry 
climate we definitely can use some succulents for various purposes, including 
living, moisture-retaining mulch), can someone recommend another succulent 
that is edible and easy to grow?
 
I was especially intrigued with the idea of using it for green roots 
because of its shallow roots.  If nothing else, it might offer excellent 
insulation, and on a roof it certainly isn't displacing native plants!
 
Thanks for the good discussion,
 
Linda
 
In a message dated 9/6/2009 2:30:34 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
johnvalenzuela at hotmail.com writes:
Linda, 
>  your useful information and propositions concerning iceplant have really got 
>  me going on a little rant here!
>
>Iceplant is barely edible to me, 
>  definitely not a 'good edible permaculture plant'. Our grandparents may have 
>  found iceplant quite useful, but many of them were not aware of the value of 
>  native plants in thier ethnobotanical and wildlife habitat functions, as many 
>  of us are still not aware of today.
>
>Wow! With all the useful, uniquely 
>  native, and other relatively non-invasive plants to promote, are we 
>  entertaining the idea of planting something that we all have all observed 
>  spreading locally and creating huge monocultures, even taking over some 
>  relatively stable native coastal plant communities? OK, it may be a very 
>  interesting and useful plant, but it doesn't mean we have to plant it, to use 
>  it- Don't we have enough of it to use already? From my perspective, planting 
>  iceplant would be a lazy choice. For others, do the cost/benefit analysis and 
>  compare to other plant options (and combinations) to see what your best 
>  choices might be.
>
>from the website you linked to 
>  (http://www.plantzafrica.com/plantcd/carpobed.htm):
>Conservation 
>  status
>Carpobrotus edulis is not regarded as threatened in its native 
>  habitat, but it is invading natural areas in other parts of the world and 
>  threatening the survival of other species. In California, where it has been 
>  used since the early 1900s to stabilize the soil along railway tracks and 
>  roadsides and as a garden ornamental, it has naturalized and is invading 
>  coastal vegetation from north of Eureka to Rosarita Bay. It is known as the 
>  highway ice plant in the USA. 
>
>from another source:
>There is 
>  evidence that iceplant also competes indirectly with native species. It has 
>  been reported that iceplant can lower soil pH and also affect the root 
>  morphology of some native shrubs (D'Antonio, 1990a; D'Antonio and Mahall, 
>  1991). It is also possible, because iceplant does not seem to be palatable to 
>  most native herbivores, that its presence could increase browsing pressure on 
>  native flora and influence the species composition of herbivorous fauna. (3) 
>  Invasion by the alien succulent, C. edulis , has become a common occurrence 
>  after fire in maritime chaparral
>
>also see: 
> 
>(http://www.cal-ipc.org/ip/management/ipcw/pages/detailreport.cfm@usernumber=25&surveynumber=182.php)
>
>I 
>  am definitely not suggesting that I only use natives in my plantings, but come 
>  on! Let's be a little more creative than planting something that can actually 
>  lower bio-diversity, like ice plant does! 
>
>Now having gotten all that 
>  out, Thank you for all the useful information on iceplant, as I am actually 
>  quite interested in the many uses of locally invasive (well adapted), or 
>  overly planted, seemingly useless landscape plants, (such as Agapanthus, or 
>  the various shrubs known as Broom). Considering all the qualities that were 
>  noted, perhaps it's economic values can be used as an incentive to harvest and 
>  remove it, to fund replacement with a more diverse, locally unique, and 
>  productive assembly of plants. If the plant selection criteria is to have some 
>  fire resistant, good tasting fruit and medicinal uses, how about some 
>  diversity plantings, starting with native prickly pear and some Aloe spp., 
>  Agave spp., and so many others. . .?   Rather than more of the same 
>  old-monoculture, lets plan for more diversity and complexity of 
>  relationships!
>
>be fruitful-
>John V.
>
>
>
>Cornucopia 
>  Kitchen Gardens and Food Forests
>John Valenzuela Permaculture 
>  Services
>Horticulturist, Consultant, Educator- 
>California, 
>  Hawai'i  phone: (415) 246-8834 
>e-mail: 
>  johnvalenzuela at hotmail.com
>
>
>
>
________________________________
 From: LBUZZELL at aol.com
>Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 14:34:14 -0400
>To: 
>  Scpg at arashi.com; sbperm2006 at googlegroups.com; sbogc at yahoogroups.com; 
>  sbfoodfuture at googlegroups.com
>Subject: [Scpg] is ice plant a good edible 
>  permaculture plant?
>
>
>Iceplant (Carpobrotus edulis aka Hottentot Fig) has a bad 
>  reputation in California these days, although its usefulness was 
>  much valued by our grandparents' generation.  It's an 
>  attractive, low-growing groundcover plant now considered invasive and 
>  governments are spending a lot of money ripping it out and replacing it 
>  with native plants.
> 
>But perhaps from a permaculture point of view it's worth another look? 
>  It's an amazing plant that performs multiple useful functions. 
>	* Yields an edible fruit which has been eaten by humans 
>    since archeological times. Fruit is fleshy, 35 mm in diameter, shaped 
>    like a spinning top, on a winged stalk, becoming yellow and fragrant when 
>    ripe. The outer wall of the fruit becomes yellowish, wrinkled and leathery 
>    with age. The seeds are embedded in the sticky, sweet, jelly-like mucilage. 
>    The fruits can be eaten fresh and they have a strong, astringent, salty, 
>    sour taste. They are not as tasty as those of C. 
>    acinaciformis (purple iceplant, can be used to make delicious jam) 
>    and C. deliciosus (purple or pink iceplant) which are sweeter. See 
> http://www.plantzafrica.com/plantcd/carpobed.htm  
>
> 
>	* Edible by some wildlife as well. Flowers draw bees and 
>    are also eaten by animals. In S. Africa, leaves are eaten by tortoises. 
>  
>	* Holds water and thus is an effective fire-resistant 
>    barrier around house or in foothills in fire-prone areas.  
>	* Drought tolerant 
>	* A coastal plant 
> 
>	* Low maintenance. Vigorous and will grow where 
>    little else wants to grow 
> 
>	* Wind resistant 
>	* Controls erosion by binding hillsides, stabilizing 
>    sandy dunes. 
> 
>	* Shallow-rooting so good for roof gardens 
>	* Like most succulents,a useful "living mulch" 
>    groundcover. 
>	* "Can be planted on flat, sandy ground, on loose sand dunes, gravelly 
>    gardens, lime-rich and brackish soils as well as in containers, rockeries, 
>    embankments and will cascade over terrace walls."  
> 
>	* Pretty yellow flowers and attractive rusty coloration 
>    even when not in bloom (you can see its autumnal-toned beauty in many 
>    paintings of coastal California scenes). 
> 
>	* Has medicinal uses and is a first-aid plant. "The leaf 
>    juice is astringent and mildly antiseptic. It is mixed with water and 
>    swallowed to treat diarrhea, dysentery and stomach cramps, and is used as a 
>    gargle to relieve laryngitis, sore throat and mouth infections. Chewing a 
>    leaf tip and swallowing the juice is enough to ease a sore throat. Leaf 
>    juice or a crushed leaf is a famous soothing cure for blue-bottle stings - 
>    being a coastal plant it is luckily often on hand in times of such 
>    emergencies. The leaf juice is used as a soothing lotion for burns, bruises, 
>    scrapes, cuts, grazes and sunburn, ringworm, eczema, dermatitis, sunburn, 
>    herpes, nappy rash, thrush, cold sores, cracked lips, chafing, skin 
>    conditions and allergies...The leaf juice also relieves the itch from 
>    mosquito, tick and spider bites both for people and their animal 
>    companions. In the Eastern Cape of South africa it is also used to 
>    treat diabetes and diptheria."
>So what do you think?  It is worth another look?  Could this be 
>  a useful plant for various garden and permaculture designs? Or should it be 
>  shunned as uncontrollable?
> 
>Linda 
>
>
________________________________
 
>
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