[Lapg] Lapg Digest, Vol 67, Issue 22
Davey Monzón
davey.creates at gmail.com
Thu Dec 17 12:16:11 PST 2009
Joan/Amy/Jess: I'll give Donovan a home, only issue is I am in Covina. Maybe
he can be dropped off on the way to LAX? I'm right off the I-10 freeway.
Thanks,
Davey.
On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 10:43 PM, <lapg-request at arashi.com> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: More on Perennial Vegetables for Miami (Ray Cirino)
> 2. Fwd: [SoCalPetRabbits] Orange County: Emergency Rabbit
> Placement (Joan Stevens)
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Ray Cirino <cobanation at yahoo.com>
> To: Dan Hemenway <permacltur at aol.com>, scpg at arashi.com, lapg at arashi.com,
> Cory Brennan <cory8570 at yahoo.com>
> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 22:13:09 -0800 (PST)
> Subject: Re: [Lapg] More on Perennial Vegetables for Miami
> Dear Dan,
> I grew up in Miami back in the 50's,60's and 70's and was always planting
> trees, mostly coconuts that sproutd along the beaches and inland waters. I
> must say there are tons of insects and a pool screen would be manditory for
> edibles. Keep the veggies high unlike the desert where you'd crator garden.
> Keep intouch, I'm really curious on the results. Watch out for the gov.
> coming in and just ripping your citrus trees out without warning, because of
> the medfly.
>
> Ray
>
> The Great Challenges we now face as a species present the very
> opportunities that are giving birth to Ecological, Psychological, and
> Spiritual Sustainability.
>
>
> --- On Wed, 12/16/09, Cory Brennan <cory8570 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > From: Cory Brennan <cory8570 at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Lapg] More on Perennial Vegetables for Miami
> > To: "Dan Hemenway" <permacltur at aol.com>, scpg at arashi.com,
> lapg at arashi.com
> > Date: Wednesday, December 16, 2009, 8:44 PM
> > Dan,
> >
> > Always a delight to read your thoughts. We're going to
> > focus on incorporating perennials in an edible jungle
> > environment - jungle is the perfect system for Miami, with
> > its "problem" soils - we've been just heaping organic matter
> > on top of the sand in different Florida climates and stuff
> > is growing really well. At the Miami location, they
> > also grow lettuce and some other annuals at the site.
> >
> > The water table is an interesting problem as well in much
> > of low land Florida - we recommended chinampas to grow trees
> > and veggies on at one site in central Florida that turned
> > marshy in the rain. They were using drainage ditches to flow
> > the water off the property! Coming from S Calif, that seemed
> > almost sacriligious to me.
> >
> > At Pine Ridge in S Dakota, with heavy clay/silt soil, we
> > need to dig into and open the soil a la keyline to create
> > the conditions for diverse prairie grasses and tree systems
> > to flourish.
> >
> > Bamboo, yes! Extremely useful and beautiful. I'm wondering
> > if there is a form of bamboo that would grow quickly in the
> > harsh extremes of a place like Pine Ridge (100+ in the
> > summer, well below freezing in winter, 3-4 months growing
> > season free of frost).
> >
> > Best, Cory
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Mon, 12/14/09, Dan Hemenway <permacltur at aol.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > From: Dan Hemenway <permacltur at aol.com>
> > > Subject: More on Perennial Vegetables for Miami
> > > To: permacltur at aol.com,
> > cory8570 at yahoo.com,
> > scpg at arashi.com,
> > lapg at arashi.com,
> > johnvalenzuela at myway.com
> > > Date: Monday, December 14, 2009, 5:09 AM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > A
> > > second look at perennial vegetables.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In
> > > providing partial answers to the inquiry about
> > perennial
> > > vegetables for the
> > > Miami area, I failed to question the question itself.
> > Why
> > > perennial? Why
> > > vegetables? Is this just a knee-jerk response to
> > the
> > > common misconception
> > > that permaculture is about growing food in
> > ‘permanent’
> > > plantings, or are there
> > > reasoned considerations behind the interest.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mollison
> > > makes a good case against tillage of soil, though
> > stopping
> > > short of ruling it
> > > out as an absolute crime against nature in all cases.
> > It
> > > has been the standard
> > > mode of food production for centuries. If it iscno
> > > good, why?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Tillage
> > > and agriculture are twins. The
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > revolution
> > > in provisioning of food that enabled such abominations
> > as
> > > urban
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > society,
> > > large scale warfare, and wholesale ecological
> > destruction
> > > was enabled by the
> > > coupling of the plow and the draft animal. Slaves
> > > were also used to pull
> > > plows, but less efficiently. Turning the soil
> > eliminated
> > > weeds and enabled
> > > rapid establishment of annual grasses such as wheat,
> > that
> > > in turn provided food
> > > for far more people than needed to produce it.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In
> > > home gardens, tillage proved better suited to cool and
> > cold
> > > temperate climates,
> > > where people’s access to traditional forest systems
> > was
> > > curtailed by church and
> > > government institutions. One could at least have a
> > small
> > > garden on a patch of
> > > land, sometimes. Turning the soil over in spring
> > hastened
> > > warming, destroyed
> > > perennial and biennial weeds, and enabled rapid
> > planting of
> > > the entire garden,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > quite
> > > advantageous in a short growing season. In arid and
> > > semiarid areas, clean
> > > cultivation of various
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > sorts
> > > eliminates moisture competition.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > As in
> > > tropical and subtropical situations, tree crops often
> > best
> > > suit to
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > these
> > > areas, if the is a more or less steady supply of deep
> > > moisture. Wide
> > > spacing of plants diminishes
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > moisture
> > > competition.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Traditional
> > > gardening in moist warm climates has always been
> > forest
> > > gardening. Where
> > > cultivation is practiced, it is generally a case of
> > > following the wrong
> > > model. While one can get away with cultivating
> > soils
> > > in a cool climate,
> > > where organic inputs break down slowly, turning soil
> > in
> > > warm moist
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > climates
> > > can destroy fertility quickly. Organic matter breaks
> > down
> > > rapidly
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > enough
> > > in these climates, and when additional air is mixed
> > into
> > > the soil, it
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > almost
> > > evaporates. No longer bound
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > in
> > > organic compounds, the resulting fertility minerals
> > leach
> > > away from the
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > surface
> > > feeder roots, ending up for the most part in the
> > aquifer.
> > > Perennials,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > and
> > > woody plants in particular, may pump nutrients from
> > > deeper soil than
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > normally
> > > mined by feeder roots. (An excellent tree for this is
> > > Inga edulis.) Some
> > > do; some don’t.
> > > Other woody plants may have a fibrous root
> > > system. For example,
> > > citrus or sabal palm. These intercept nutrients
> > > efficiently before they
> > > leach. Citrus, for example, can take up large
> > > quantities of
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > nutrients
> > > quickly, as available, and store them in the
> > leaves.
> > > (Defoliate a citrus
> > > tree and you get no fruit!) Trees that have a natural
> > > preference for river
> > > banks that flood, for example, are a good bet for such
> > an
> > > ability, as the flood
> > > waters drop rich sediments around them, but the
> > nutrients
> > > can be leached by
> > > rainfall and/or subsequent flooding. So it
> > > is
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > catch
> > > as catch can. I’ve not looked into this, but I would
> > say
> > > that mangoes are
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > a
> > > good bet for adventitious nutrient capture, judging
> > from
> > > where I’ve seen them
> > > growing, both planted and more or less unattended in
> > places
> > > such as Mexico,
> > > Paraguay, and the Philippines.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > OK,
> > > we want to conserve soil nutrients, take up nutrients
> > > quickly when they are
> > > available (to avoid leaching), and produce useful
> > products,
> > > including
> > > food. If perennial vegetables help with
> > > this,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > fine.
> > > Though specifying vegetables
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > may
> > > channel a mindset of single use, a mindset that we
> > avoid
> > > in
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > permaculture.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Since
> > > the question pertained to the Miami region of
> > Florida,
> > > cursed with soils that
> > > both are coarse (leach rapidly) and intensely
> > calcareous
> > > (developed from
> > > coral), we have additional concerns. We want plants
> > that
> > > tolerate extremes of
> > > moisture and drought, and that tolerate a high soil pH
> > with
> > > excessive soil
> > > calcium. LOL
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The
> > > problem is not a shortage of books! One could fill
> > a
> > > good size library
> > > with books that deal with tropical food
> > > plants,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > or
> > > just with books that deal with food plants for
> > tropical
> > > islands, which
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > commonly
> > > have nearly identical soil conditions to Miami’s.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > A
> > > permaculturist might hunt down some of these books.
> > But not
> > > as a first course
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > of
> > > action! One needs to shut off
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > the
> > > computer, get off his/her ass, and get out and walk
> > > around. What is
> > > growing in the area already? Do
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > we really
> > > know all its uses? Is it
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > edible?
> > > Is it a nutrient pump? Is
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > it a
> > > nutrient net? What are its
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > multiple
> > > functions? How much work is required to keep it
> > growing and
> > > producing? Does it depend upon
> > > external inputs? If
> > > so, to what degree?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > South
> > > Florida has some of the best warm-climate botanical
> > gardens
> > > I know about.
> > > Probably no one person is familiar with all of the
> > plants
> > > in any of them. There is a
> > > botanical garden
> > > specifically aimed at fruit and spice plants in the
> > nearby
> > > Homestead area
> > > (which has quite different soils from the Miami
> > area).
> > > There is an amazing
> > > variety of food presented in open air markets and
> > ethnic
> > > markets in the
> > > area. Often, a grocery purchase nets seeds as well
> > as
> > > food.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The
> > > first principle of permaculture design is
> > conservation. A
> > > core concept derived
> > > from this principle is Mollison’s dictum, ‘Seek
> > the
> > > most benefit from the least
> > > change.’ This translates, in part,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > to
> > > “Use what you’ve got.” To do that, you have
> > to
> > > know what you’ve got, what
> > > is growing right around you. For example, I was amazed
> > in a
> > > visit to Miami to
> > > see a mulberry tree producing
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > prolifically.
> > > It tolerated the heat.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > It
> > > tolerated the calcareous soil. And it produced
> > despite
> > > competition
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > from
> > > a lawn! (I took cuttings, but
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > it
> > > was the absolute worst time to take cuttings and only
> > two
> > > made it. One I
> > > donated to a permaculture
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > demonstration
> > > design by some of my students at New College at
> > > Sarasota. Maybe you can
> > > get permission for some
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > cuttings
> > > of your own at the right time, in about a
> > > month.) Mulberry is more
> > > than a tree fruit. It is shade,
> > > firewood,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > cover
> > > and forage for poultry, and a vegetable.
> > > Cooked mulberry leaves
> > > taste fine. (I wouldn’t eat them raw, as they
> > > contain a latex). OK, a
> > > bearing mulberry tree wasn’t hard to recognize.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > So
> > > you have more plants than you can deal with now, you
> > just
> > > have to get your
> > > people out checking on them, looking them up in
> > Facciola,
> > > etc. Talking to folks
> > > in ethnic neighborhoods will save a lot of time, and
> > > watching what the kids
> > > forage
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > helps.
> > > In Massachusetts, I was helping to set up a little
> > demo at
> > > a college in Roxbury
> > > and noticed, again, some
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > mulberry
> > > trees. This was early
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > spring
> > > and they hadn’t even leafed-out yet. Some kids
> > were
> > > watching us.
> > > “Hey, kid, which of these trees has the best
> > > mulberries?” “I don’ know
> > > about no
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > mulberries,
> > > mister.” “Don’t worry.
> > > We want
> > > you to eat them. I just need to know which is best so
> > we
> > > can grow more of
> > > them.” “Yeah. That one over there is pretty
> > > good.” How do you
> > > get that kind of information from a book?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > OK,
> > > why vegetables? Why not fruits and vegetables, as they
> > are
> > > nutritionally
> > > interchangeable? Moreover, many
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > fruits
> > > are used as vegetables too, either the leaves, as
> > with
> > > mulberry or
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > papaya,
> > > or the immature fruit, e.g., mango and papaya
> > again.
> > > And, besides the
> > > obvious vegetable, plantain, you have green bananas,
> > > essentially a different
> > > variety of the same crop, used the same way. No family
> > can
> > > use up all the ripe
> > > bananas from one plant before they go bad. So one
> > > starts with the green
> > > bananas, cooked. (And there are strategies for
> > > hastening or, alternately,
> > > delaying ripening to spread the period of ripe fruit
> > over a
> > > longer, and
> > > therefore more useful, interval.) And why do we call
> > banana
> > > a fruit
> > > anyway? It is interchangeable nutritionally with
> > > potato. We call a tomato
> > > a vegetable, but it is a fruit, botanically. Why not
> > > banana? There just
> > > isn’t a reason. We draw the line arbitrarily, by
> > > custom, not reason.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > While
> > > I am aware that the common misconception is that
> > > permaculture is a system of
> > > growing food. We should not support that fiction.
> > So
> > > we want plants that
> > > fulfill our need for fruits/vegetables and that have
> > > multiple functions.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yesterday,
> > > I mentioned chayote as a vegetable with several
> > > edible
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > parts.
> > > I first encountered chayote
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > in
> > > 1984, teaching a permaculture design course in a
> > little
> > > village, Otates, in
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > the
> > > highlands of Veracruz near Jalapa. In checking out
> > the
> > > area, I encountered
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > chayote
> > > plantations all trellised like commercial grapes and
> > over
> > > bare soil
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > cultivation.
> > > This was winter, relatively cool and dry in that
> > region. My
> > > first
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > thought
> > > was that they could get a crop of winter wheat out
> > between
> > > the chayotes.
> > > Harvest would be slightly awkward, but manageable.
> > Then I
> > > thought, why not run
> > > chickens under the vines on a rotational basis,
> > harvesting
> > > wheat, wheat grass,
> > > weeds, and insects. The chickens would need very
> > little
> > > purchased feed. No
> > > fertilizer would be bought, only chicken feed. What
> > the
> > > chickens passed would
> > > become fertilizer. If one grows broilers in batches,
> > > chickens could be marketed
> > > before the spring flush of shoots, which would be
> > > vulnerable to pecking and
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > scratching,
> > > and a new batch introduced when all was safe. I
> > > didn’t work out the
> > > summer cover crop, but it might be evident from among
> > the
> > > weeds. Or legume
> > > cover crop such as cowpea might be grown. Running
> > > trellis wires between
> > > rows would create an arbor effect, making better use
> > of
> > > sunlight, and providing
> > > shade for chickens or maybe turkeys would be a better
> > > summer crop. Mob stocking
> > > could create more or less bare soil just before
> > reseeding,
> > > or one could use a
> > > Fukuoka-type system of planting through the previous
> > crop
> > > (after removing the
> > > birds!). So we go from a simplistic concept of
> > > perennial vegetable to a
> > > system of multiple plant species, animal species,
> > greater
> > > yield of our
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > primary
> > > crop, a second highly profitable crop, and less
> > expense for
> > > labor and
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > fertilizer.
> > > That is how a permaculturist looks at a ‘perennial
> > > vegetable.’
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Finally,
> > > it seems that we are overlooking a lot of obvious
> > > options. For example,
> > > no on has mentioned bamboo
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > shoots.
> > > I’ve already cited plantain above. Cassava is a
> > plant
> > > native to nearby regions
> > > of the Caribbean, with both edible leaves and root.
> > Palm
> > > hearts are fine food,
> > > though a little labor intensive to harvest. Where
> > one
> > > needs to cut a
> > > sabal palm anyway (the Florida state tree), you might
> > as
> > > well harvest the
> > > heart. The tender portions are surrounded by fibrous
> > but
> > > also starchy material
> > > that is good feed for ruminants and especially
> > rabbits.
> > > (And it is one of the
> > > most weedy plants at our site and very difficult to
> > > suppress once germinated.)
> > > You can get lists of palms with multiple stems for
> > palm
> > > heart gardening.
> > > Some of these also bear useful fruit (and terrifying
> > > thorns!).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Good
> > > luck! And productive observations!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hemenway
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Barking
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Frogs
> > > Permaculture Center
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > www.barkingfrogspermaculture.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > PS There are excellent USDA agricultural
> > > stations in Puerto Rico and Hawaii with many useful
> > > publications.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > There
> > > are also university publications from each. Also in
> > English are good publications
> > > from the
> > > Philippines,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Australia
> > > (which has a large subtropical to tropical zone), and
> > > probably from the
> > > American territories in the Pacific (e.g. American
> > Samoa).
> > > Many African
> > > countries are
> > > former English
> > > colonies and have
> > > English as one of their official languages. For
> > example, in Kenya, ICRAF
> > > publishes in English. In Miami,
> > > you should be able to find permaculture-oriented
> > folks
> > > fluent in Spanish, which
> > > opens up papers and books published from Mexico
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > to
> > > Argentina for you to mine. For
> > > example,
> > > someone should run down the library of INEREB, long
> > since
> > > defunded, but doing
> > > exactly the sort
> > > of research
> > > that pertains to your
> > > needs. (Disregard their paper on chinampas, which is
> > > wrongheaded.) There are
> > > permaculture movements in these
> > > countries, as well as Brazil
> > > where many permacultrists speak English fluently. So
> > > information exchange can
> > > help develop your info base.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > But
> > > knowing about a useful plant is of no value if you
> > > don't have a way to get it.
> > > Using what already grows around you avoids that
> > > problem.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > PSS I forgot to mention that we always
> > > encourage someone in a region to develop a
> > permaculture
> > > nursery. If someone already has
> > > a
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > nursery
> > > and is interested in permaculture, that is way better
> > > because you don't learn
> > > nursery operations overnight.
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> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Lapg mailing list
> > Lapg at arashi.com
> > https://www.arashi.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/lapg
> >
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>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Joan Stevens <mamabotanica at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "lapg at arashi.com" <lapg at arashi.com>
> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 22:43:24 -0800 (PST)
> Subject: [Lapg] Fwd: [SoCalPetRabbits] Orange County: Emergency Rabbit
> Placement
> Rabbits are great Permaculture pets! Your garden could use the straw as
> mulch and once it goes thru the bunny it's a wonderful source of fertility.
> I'd live to see a rabbit tractor!
> If you are at all interested it sounds like this is a great bunn who needs
> a home.
> Joan
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> *From:* <OrioleAmy at aol.com>OrioleAmy at aol.com
> *Date:* December 16, 2009 8:22:31 PM PST
> *To:* <socalpetrabbits at yahoogroups.com>socalpetrabbits at yahoogroups.com
> *Subject:* *[SoCalPetRabbits] Orange County: Emergency Rabbit Placement*
> *Reply-To:* <SoCalPetRabbits at yahoogroups.com>
> SoCalPetRabbits at yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> I received the following e-mail today. Can anyone help?
>
> ~~~~~~~~~
> I have an adorable bunny who's just over 2 years old. But, I am leaving the
> country this Friday, Dec. 18 and cannot bring my bunny with me. I had an
> adoptive family all set up that just fell through and so now I'm scrambling
> to find him a good home. I wonder if you can help me. I've attached a flier
> with a description, some photos, and my contact information. Please let me
> know if there's anything you can do to help me.
> Yours kindly,
> Jessica
> ~~~~~~~
>
> Here's the description on the flyer:
>
> This adorable, sweet, fun-loving bunny needs a new home. I am leaving
> California to begin an itinerant period on the east coast and in Europe, and
> sadly, Donovan cannot accompany me. I need to find him a new home by
> December 17, 2009.
> This is what he would say about himself if he could talk instead of just
> squeak (yes, he squeaks!): “I love hay, frolicking, being pet by my loving
> owners, cilantro, basil, and jumping high in the air whenever I can. But not
> necessarily in that order. I don't love to be held, but I bet if you were
> persistent and sweet and offered frequent treats, I might be convinced
> otherwise. I don't need a lot from you, just some pellets, hay, a litter box
> (yup, I'm litter box trained, it's awesome), water (obviously), and room to
> run around for as long as you'd like to let me do so everyday. Please adopt
> me. I'm really, really cute, and will bring lots of laughter into your
> home.”
> I couldn't have said it better myself.
> He is a really easy and adorable pet.
> Here's the need-to-know: You need room for a little pen for him, or an
> area to block off with the pen. He eats hay constantly, so hay allergies
> won't work. He needs as much time and space to run and play as you can give
> him-if I'm home all day, he's out of the pen all day; if I'm only home in
> the evenings, he's out in the evening until I go to bed. He may chew on
> wooden furniture, but it's easy to discourage with a spritz of room spray in
> the area. He will eat electrical wiring if available, so hide it. And
> finally, he looooooooooves fresh herbs and lettuce and greenery and fruit of
> all kinds as treats!
>
> If you're interested, please give me a call or email.
> Jessica Ostrower: 949.633.3642; *jgostrower at gmail.com
> * Thanks!
> ~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
>
>
> Amy Spintman
> Educator, San Diego HRS
> <http://www.sandiego>http://www.sandiegorabbits.org
> Cats & Rabbits & More
> http://www.catsandrabbitsandmore.com
> Toys & Supplies for Rabbits
> Adoption Information
>
> Join us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cats.rabbits
>
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