[Lapg] [Scpg] Interesting perspective about invasive species
camille cimino
camcim at yahoo.com
Fri Apr 11 18:10:17 PDT 2008
please read the book before you continue to send BOGUS
info out.
i have already weighed both sides and am decided until
there is new or compelling evidence.
david thedoropolus is a long time permaculturist,
scientist and biologist.
this is about a permaculture perspective, not an
ecologist perspective.
think big picture, please think permaculture
priciples, not more hysteria.
2 more examples................
camels are from north america if they didn't invade
elsewhere there would be no camels.
the idea of "native" plants was first coined by nazi
germany. hitler hired landscape architects to remove
all non german plants. the LOVELY beginning on
"invasion biolgy."
check your roots. love all plants and respect nature.
one more thing...........
most "invasive species" are a result of pollution,
environmental degradation or a short term response to
a change in environment.
nature will always find a balance, can you?
--- steve williams <steelheadwig at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Camille, I'll get back after I read the book...
>
> For now, here is the review from "Ecology", a
> publication of the Ecological Society of America
>
(http://www.esapubs.org/esapubs/journals/ecology.htm#Sco):
> "Now it is invasion biologists' turn to face
> misguided invective. [The book is] faulty...
> inconsistent... [has] an inadequate evolutionary
> framework... incendiary... disingenuous...
> inflammatory... spurious, highly politicized...
> invective, masquerading as an authentic scientific
> critique." —Dr. D. Secord, University of Washington.
> Book Review, Ecology 85(4), April 2004.
>
> Also, here are some websites about invasive species
> so folks can weigh both sides and form their own
> opinions:
>
> http://www.cal-ipc.org/ip/definitions/impact.php
> http://biology.usgs.gov/invasive/effects.html
> http://www.weedcenter.org/ (see doc about invasive
> hydrilla and bald eagle deaths)
>
> word out...S
>
>
>
> camille cimino <camcim at yahoo.com> wrote: i highly
> recommend the book!
>
> it's not fair to start the discussion until you can
> see the long term facts, science, and data.
>
> FYI.............
>
> david thedoropolus is the steward of j.l. hudson
> public access seed bank. it used to be the largest
> until SSE started taking corporate monies form
> kelloggs etc.
>
> also,
> i was not joking about planting invasive species.
>
> i just planted some variegated arundo donax in
> pasadena in the arroyo seco, right near the rose
> bowl.
>
> today i planted valerian in silverlake
>
> tomorrow i am planting spearmint in a veggie garden
>
> and soon i will plant very large eucalyptus in on
> open
> chaparral fire zone, kinda close to the house.
>
> if you want to knopw the circumstances i would be
> glad
> to share.............
>
> ie the arundo donax went in a very special jungle
> yard
> underneath huge trees and massive vines in a very
> shady zone. no worries about it getting out of
> control.
>
> i really hope it lives!!!!
>
> it all about context and observation. no such thing
> as invasive, no such thing as native vs non-native,
> no
> judgement about nature or presumption that we can
> even
> begin to understand the complexity.
>
> jeez.....we still don't even get the
> interconnectivity
> of a forest.
>
> i VOTE FOR DIVERSITY.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- steve williams wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > My 2 (3?) cents:
> >
> > I have worked in several National Parks, mostly
> > doing habitat restoration. That is, restoration of
> > areas damaged by introduced livestock or humans,
> > which usually result in non-native weed invasions.
>
> > We removed weeds and planted natives into those
> > sites. In general, I found it to be a worthwhile
> > mission.
> >
> > Having said that, I think there IS a certain
> > fanaticism to the "nativist" mission. I've
> always
> > been leary of their mostly unchallenged
> willingness
> > to resort to chemical solutions to some of these
> > persistent weeds. I agree that the pesticide
> > industry promotes this sometimes over-zealous "war
> > on weeds". I don't like that language...who wants
> > another war?! I believe non-chemical weed
> > management with mulching, native planting and
> other
> > more benign solutions has a place in wildland
> > management.
> >
> > I have not yet read the below-mentioned book, but
> I
> > am going to. I agree with Cory's observation
> that
> > it appears to be fanaticism from the other
> > extreme... I too, don't see this as a black and
> > white issue; it IS case-by-case. I'm not a big
> fan
> > of polarization either. Taking the Permaculture
> > Design course has given me a fresh perspective on
> > alternative views on weed management.
> >
> > Lastly, Camille, I find your below statements,
> > "I purposely plant invasive species all over, see
> > who is gonna win! pampas grass rules!"
> > to be particularly disturbing. Hopefully this is
> a
> > joke to get a rise out of people. While invasive
> > ornamentals may have a place in urban/suburban
> > environments, planting them purposefully in any
> > proximity to native wildlands is considered an
> > eco-crime. If this is the case, you are a true
> > loonytunes of the weedophile fringe, and I hope to
> > god I never see you on a trail waving one of your
> > beloved seed-laden pampasgrass fronds around!
> >
> > ----Steelhead Steve ( ;
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > camille cimino wrote: i am a HUGE
> > fan and personal friend of david
> > thedoropolus and his book "invasion biology."
> >
> > i highly recommend reading his book to get the
> FACTS
> > instead of buying in to the nativist hysteria.
> >
> > according to permaculture principles there should
> be
> > ZERO judgement regarding plants, just the right
> > plant
> > in the right spot.
> >
> > i purposely plant invasive species all over, see
> who
> > is gonna win!
> >
> > pampas grass rules!
> >
> > PS she we get him to come down for another book
> > tour?
> > he was here in LA 2 or so years ago.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Diana Liu wrote:
> >
> > > Hi, Cory. I agree with you. It's definitely
> not
> > a
> > > black and white thing. There is so much that we
> > > don't know about nature. Someone mentioned (I
> > think
> > > Larry) once that it's just how plants propagate,
> > > spreading their seeds (and genes) anywhere they
> > go.
> > > So, are there really so called "native" vs.
> > > "non-native" (and therefore invasive plants)?
> > > Again, these are labels that we, human invented.
>
> > >
> > > I would think that there could be a lot of
> cross
> > > pollination and hybridization between the
> "native"
> > > and "invasive" plants. As a consequence, may
> > create
> > > progenies (diversity) that are more adaptive
> than
> > > either parent plants. Isn't diversity the
> golden
> > > rule for sustainability to happen?
> > >
> > > Cory Brennan wrote:
> > > I think the problem is more of a situation
> where
> > > permaculture principles are not applied, by
> either
> > > side. I know of a number of situations with
> > > invasive species that were quite destructive and
> > > disruptive of ecosystems, destroying forests,
> > > waterways, etc. It is usually not a black or
> > white
> > > situation. You have to go in and actually
> observe
> > > the ecosystem in question and find out what is
> > > happening and why. Sometimes that isn't
> obvious.
> > > For instance, beetle invasions that kill forests
> > may
> > > not have happened if the forests had not been
> > > weakened in a number of ways first by man's
> > > intervention (clear cut, replanting of single
> > > species, incorrect fire management techniques,
> > > pollution, etc, etc). Application of microbes
> can
> > > stop invasions as the system is strengthened - I
> > > personally don't know of any situation where
> > > artificial chemical solutions would be
> > "necessary".
> > > In other cases, like mustard, there are
> > adaptability
> > > features that native species don't have.
> > >
> > > The review of this book makes it sound as
> extreme
> > as
> > > those it is criticizing - I tend to distrust
> > > anything that makes things so black and white,
> > from
> > > any side. My view is that you have to observe
> and
> > > then do what will be least disruptive to the
> > > existing system, as per permaculture principles.
>
> > A
> > > great argument for natives is that we too often
> > > don't know their use and we really should bother
> > to
> > > find out. So often, they offer more nutrition
> and
> > > other uses than imported species. California
> > > natives such as the oak are amazing plants and
> > have
> > > so many great uses. Cutting them down to bring
> > in
> > > cattle and strip mining has caused very easily
> > > observed damage to ecosystems, including massive
> > > erosion problems.
> > >
> > > I think the argument of natives vs non native is
> a
> > > bit of a red herring. The real issue is whether
> we
> > > are observing the effects we create on our
> > > ecosystems and the implications of those
> effects,
> > > and taking responsiblity for that or not.
> > >
> > > By the way, someone mentioned on one of these
> > lists
> > > plants that are compatible with live oak. Is
> > there
> > > a list? I'm familiar with some, but not all.
> > >
> > > Cory
> > >
> > > Marc Bailey
> > wrote:
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> > > perspective about invasive species";
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> > > on this
> > > list would find interesting. Happy composting,
> > > -Marc
> > >
> >
>
http://jlhudsonseeds.net/Books.htm#Invasion%20Biology
> > > We have all heard the breathless tales of the
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> > > alien\x22 hydrilla supports the highest bird
> > species
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> > > "category": ["IDENTIFIER"], "context": "of
> spam?
> > > Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has
> > the",
> > > "metaData": { "linkHref":
> "http://mail.yahoo.com",
> > > "linkProtocol": "http", "linkRel": "nofollow",
> > > "linkTarget": "_blank" } } };
> > > I've been thinking about plants labeled as
> > > invasive species and how many of them have
> > extremely
> > > positive aspects. Much time, effort, and money
> is
> > > spent fighting these plants, but perhaps our
> > > energies could be directed in more fruitful ways
> > > (pun intended).
> > >
> > > Coincidentally, a book that I had been reading
> > > called "Edible Forest Gardens" (Jacke &
> > Toensmeier)
> > > recomends another book: "Invasion Biology:
> > Critique
> > > of a Pseudoscience". I went to the website and
> > > found the following synopsys of the book that I
> > > thought other's on this list would find
> > interesting.
> > >
> > > Happy composting,
> > > -Marc
> > >
> > >
> >
>
http://jlhudsonseeds.net/Books.htm#Invasion%20Biology
> > >
> > > We have all heard the breathless tales of the
> > > dangers of "invasive alien species," but what
> does
> > > science say about them? Did you know that
> studies
> > > show that purple loosestrife does not affect
> > species
> > > richness of native plants? Or that it supports
> > > higher bird densities than native vegetation?
> That
> > > saltcedar supports native birds and insects in
> > high
> > > numbers and at high levels of diversity,
> including
> > > endangered species? That the "invasive alien"
> > > hydrilla supports the highest bird species
> > diversity
> > > in Florida, and it supports higher fish species
> > > density and many times the fish biomass than
> > > natives? That the zebra mussel increased the
> catch
> > > of yellow perch five-fold, and that it improves
> > > water quality? That the so-called "killer algae"
> > > reduces pollution and helps native species? That
> > in
> > > all cases, including even oceanic islands,
> > > introduced species have increased biodiversity?
> > >
> > > Thoroughly researched, with full citations to
> > > scientific literature, this book will definitely
> > > change your view of introduced species. It will
> > give
> > > you the facts you need to counter those
> promoting
> > > invader fears.
> > >
> > > Chapters cover the origins of "natural"
> ecosystems
> > > and their changes over time, and detail the true
> > > underlying causes of "invasion" in the damage
> > > industrialism is wreaking on the planet. Case
> > > studies of many of the most feared "invaders"
> are
> > > presented, each case showing the distortions of
> > the
> > > nativists, and the beneficial effects of the
> > > newcomer. The resiliency of ecosystems and the
> > rapid
> > > ecological integration of newcomers is
> > demonstrated.
> > > A chapter details the growing extremism of the
> > > nativist movement, and the harm caused as they
> > > clearcut, bulldoze, herbicide, and burn natural
> > > areas around the world in the name of purifying
> > the
> > > landscape of the "foreign," even killing
> > endangered
> > > species as "invaders."
> > >
> > > A detailed analysis of the writings of these
> > > nativists reveals the psychopathologies that
> drive
> > > this reactionary movement. Numerous quotes are
> > > compared which demonstrate that the same fears
> > that
> > > underlie xenophobia, racism, and fascism fuel
> the
> > > anti-invader movement. A chapter covers in
> detail
> > > the pseudoscientific nature of invasion
> > biology-why
> > > the invasive species model cannot be
> scientific,
> > and
> > > the poor practices that characterize the field.
> > The
> > > impossibility of predicting invasions is
> covered,
> > > showing the "white list" concept to be useless
> as
> > > public policy.
> > >
> > > The hidden influence of the herbicide industry
> is
> > > exposed. The regulatory industry and corporate
> > > interests are colluding in an effort to leverage
> > the
> > > fictitious "invasion crisis" into a system of
> > > complete bureaucratic control of nature, and
> > > corporate privatization of the earth's
> biological
> > > diversity.
> > >
> > > The final chapters concern the beneficial,
> > > diversifying effects of anthropogenic
> > dispersal-the
> > > movement of species by man. These species
> increase
> > > biological diversity, benefit ecosystems,
> prevent
> > > extinctions, and act as an important force for
> > > healing the planet. Dispersal is a powerful
> > driving
> > > force of evolution, and the book concludes by
> > > pointing out a new direction for
> conservation-the
> > > incorporation of dispersal as an essential
> > strategy.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > >
> > > ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
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> > > Kindness in thinking creates profoundness.
> > > Kindness in giving creates love.
> > > - Lao Tzu
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> > >
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