Owen:
If it isn't practical, it isn't permaculture.  That's basic.  That's not to say that the word isn't misused, but that is not the fault of the word, or the practice that the word represents.
Grasses are a huge family and quite variable.  I was silently skeptical, myself, about a plants that are largely mat-rooted holding soil in place on a steep bank.  "Bunch" grass could be any of hundreds of species.  On the other hand, with the correct woody plants, grasses may be OK.  We are talking too much in generalities here, and the specifics of site and of habit of candidate species for the site are important.  Neither you, nor I, nor anyone who has not visited the site can know what will work.  On the other hand, I am profoundly skeptical of an approach that favors surface runoff, since that is just another way of saying soil erosion, particularly on steep slopes.

Dan Hemenway



-----Original Message-----
From: Owen Dell <owen@owendell.com>
To: John Calvert <jcalvert@crystal3.com>
Cc: scpg@arashi.com
Sent: Mon, Sep 6, 2010 1:29 pm
Subject: Re: [Scpg] steep permaculture slope ideas?

Grass is a very poor way to protect slopes against erosion. The large number of stem penetrations results in a very effective transmission of water into the soil, which can lead to supersaturation and slope failure. No offense to anyone, but I recommend that people not speculate about what is going to work. There are accepted standards for this kind of activity. Permaculture is a great thing, but it doesn't always address real-world issues and it isn't always right. Slope failures can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to fix, and the cost is not covered by insurance. I say again, PLEASE consult a professional before you go off implementing half-cocked ideas. 
 
Owen 
 
Owen E. Dell, ASLA 
Owen Dell & Associates 
Landscape Architect • Educator • Author 
P.O. Box 30433 • Santa Barbara, CA 93130 
805 962-3253 
owen@owendell.com 
www.owendell.com 
 
QUOTE OF THE DAY 
 
"You take a number of small steps which you believe are right, 
thinking maybe tomorrow somebody will treat this as a dangerous 
provocation. And then you wait. If there is no reaction, you take 
another step: courage is only an accumulation of small steps." 
  George Konrad 
  Hungarian novelist & essayist 
 
 
 
On Sep 6, 2010, at 10:23 AM, John Calvert wrote: 
 
> 
> I was gonna say grass... the bunch grass sounds like a very good idea. 
> 
> lfunkhouser@juno.com wrote: 
>> Kevin, 
>> 
>> You might also want to talk to Mary Scaran, who is an acupuncturist >> in SB (she's in the phone book) and has a very steep slope running >> the entire length of her oak wooded and desert upland property that >> is permeated by a spring. She has planted lots of things to >> stabilize, including Persian mulberry trees (edible!) and some kind >> of grass -- can't remember which -- but a type of bunch grass that >> she selected for its very specific properties of soil >> stabilization. Mary practices permaculture, studies horticulture, >> and is a very fine acupuncturist. 
>> 
>> Good luck. 
>> 
>> --Laura 
>> 
>> ---------- Original Message ---------- 
>> From: Kevin Gleason <kevin@kevingleasonart.com> 
>> To: John Calvert <jcalvert@crystal3.com> 
>> Cc: scpg@arashi.com 
>> Subject: Re: [Scpg] steep permaculture slope ideas? 
>> Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 07:14:15 -0700 
>> 
>> Thanks, John, and all others who have replied. This is such a >> helpful community. I am going to look into the "net and pan" >> technique Susan recommended and am trying to find some good >> "pinning" shrubs and trees per Dan's advice. I need to pay good >> attention to the plants that seem to be holding up west facing >> slopes next time I'm out hiking. It is okay with me if this >> really steep section doesn't grow food.... Maybe I'll just grow >> food for the birds there. 
>> I appreciate eveyone's help. 
>> Thanks! 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sep 5, 2010, at 9:22 PM, John Calvert wrote: 
>> 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > I started out writing a response to this, looking in the >> direction > of what grows native on our steep coastal mountain >> canyons. 
>> > 
>> > But I realize that there isn't much edible on the really steep > >> slopes. It seems the more fruit-bearing types are more likely to >> > appear where there's better soil and moisture. 
>> > 
>> > So, that leaves the plants that do well in poor soil and least > >> moisture... 
>> > 
>> > nopal cactus, various wild sages, maybe fit in a hollyleaf >> cherry, > chia ?, maybe some kind of mulberry, wild golden currant >> (?). 
>> > 
>> > so, mostly natives, and then some select fruit-bearing plantings >> w/ > drip irrigation. ? 
>> > 
>> > JC 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Kevin Gleason wrote: 
>> >> Hi all, 
>> >> 
>> >> I was wondering if anyone has good advice for creating a garden >> on >> a VERY steep slope (more than 45 degrees.) I'd love some >> feedback >> on alternative terracing methods, whether this is too >> steep for >> small swales, good soil-holding, drought-tolerant >> ground covers >> and other plants that would be useful and other >> ideas. I remember >> hearing Brock Dolman talking about making >> retaining walls with >> burlap tubes filled with soil and a little >> cement. Anybody tried it? 
>> >> 
>> >> Thanks for your help! 
>> >> Kevin 
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