Water does observably go uphill in nature via a narrowing channel, etc. There are natural patterns that force water uphill at least for short distances. It depends on the vectors and forces applied. One could call a running stream a "pump" but I would call it a running stream. You can use the natural force of falling water and compression to defy gravity. As to how practical or useful this may be, I will leave that to people with more experience. I recall reading about an ancient irrigation system that used this principle, but I don't recall details. Anybody else have any data on such systems?

Cory

Permacltur@aol.com wrote:

Unfortunately, we get more than our share of 'instant experts' in permaculture who go off half cocked. Water does not flow uphill without the application of external energy, e.g., a pump. Keyline brings water from the valley line to the adjacent ridges because the ridges are also sloped downward along their crests. So there are points along the ridges that are lower than some points along the valley floor, closer to the keypoint. The keyline itself is a contour line (meaning a level line) that starts at the head of the valley and travels outward until it reaches the ridge crest. Visualize a valley with a keypoint at the north end, and flanking ridges. The valley floor and the ridges are roughly parallel and all sloping downward. At any point on the valley floor, a line more or less at right angles to the valley floor will have to climb to get to the ridge crests. But our keyline is not at right angles at all but flanks out in a south easterly and south westerly direction on either side of the keypoint until it reaches the point on each ridge that is at the same ELEVATION as the valley head. Any line south of our hypothetical valley head that parallels the keyline is actually going slightly downhill. This is just the way erosion shapes land. And it is only true of land that is fairly old, geologically speaking, and has been eroded for a long time to get its present shape. So if you comb the soil with a chisel plow or keyline cultivator BELOW the keypoint, and parallel to the keyline, the water will follow the consequent channels to the ridge at points LOWER than origin at the valley center, the creek bed, for example. Water goes downhill. You can pick the valley out from a contour map because the contour goes up in the shape of a U or V through the keypoint (with a little flatter basin at the bottom of the erosion cut.) So it is more like an omega, swelling out around a small basin and around the other side, going at an oblique angle to the stream bed or valley line until it indeed reaches the ridge at a point further from the primary hill or ridge. The interesting thing I've learned by wandering about the planet a bit, teaching permaculture, is that the same arrangement pertains whether we have uplifted hills that have been eroded or a relatively flat prairie that has been sculpted below the dominant level by flowing water. And of course this pertains only to humid landscapes.

The key to remember is the difference, conceptually, between 'level' and 'flat'. In our example, the entire landscape slopes toward the south, ridges and valleys alike. This brings extended points on the ridges to the same level (elevation) as the valley head. I would guess, and it is only a guess, that there are landscapes where the ridge valley arrangement does not extend far enough out from the hill for this to work. But I've not thought of this before writing this post, so it is just something to consider as maybe possible.

For Mother Earth

Dan Hemenway

In a message dated 2/3/08 2:08:27 PM, ehumel@excite.com writes:

Hey everyone,
I was talking with a professor who had taught in the past with permaculture teachers, and he thought some things sounded a little far out. He mentioned one teacher who said that he could make water go uphill. I couldn't defend this one, I thought it had to do something with keyline and bringing water from the valleys to the ridges, but 'uphill'?
Anyone remember the details on this one?

Thanks
Eric

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